another "is karate really effective?" post... sorr

[Goju1]

And before some people start to mention "traditional karatekas", these trad. Karatekas certainly can handle anyone... BUT, i've never seen a traditional old days like Motobu or Higaona karatekas nowaday. If anyone here is like that please introduce yourself to me, I'll be more than glad to learn anything from you.

 

And I believe if you're not, we ( karatekas ) should practice to be like them, not to be like a Point sparring champ.

 

See ya

 

Good post tenkamusou - I agree! Particularly your last point (no pun intended) I am a Higoanna karate practitioner (we train with him fairly regularly, as his Dojo is in our county) and we carry on the tradition as best we can. I always assumed all karate was like ours, boy was I wrong as I'm learning from this forum!

[Killer Miller]

I was thinking to myself here... and I was just wondering, Is karate really efective against other forms of fighting or a real street fight??

 

Cause, I got to say... I've doing a few researches, and I understand that Kyokushin karate and other forms of full contact styles can handle other styles, but can Shotokan, shito-ryu or any other style handle for example muay thai?

 

I don't get it...? You keep acting like you are not asking a question in your post, and that my replies have no justification in this thread. Furthermore, you put down Shotokan as if you are an expert in the art in your comparisons. However, the above snipit of your original post indicates that you are clearly asking a simple question and definately stating that Shotokan, and other similar arts, are worthless. LOL You're going around in circles here... You've been told the actual facts of the matter. There are many well known, and not so well know karatekas that are more than capable of doing what you state that we can't do. This clearly indicates to me that you have no clue what so ever that you are talking about in your arogance...

 

We can put people down hard and fast anytime we want for the majority - MA practitioner or street person. The fact of the matter, we typically choose a more appropriate and civil approach to a situation. You don't see our kind in your pound and bash tournaments with an eight foot tall trophy because that has no meaning to us what so ever! The self satisfaction and appreciation from our fellow karatas is plenty of reward for us.

 

So it is clearly evident to me that you are totally lost in your quest for life, hapiness and the persuit effectiveness - or actually know as the "art of perfection." Instead of spewing your general statements that we are not effective MAs, why don't you take the challenge of being specific, in terms of technique and training methods, so we can factually respond back as to why you are so wrong in your mis-postings.

 

Your's truly,

 

- Killer Miller -

[tenkamusou]

Killer Miller... I'm not saying that shotokan and others are worthless by their content, I'm just saying that nowadays i havent seen anything that can show me that karate you keep talking about.

 

And u said that there are many well known that are capable of defeating anyone nowadays, please tell us who they are, so we can learn from them!

 

And here in Brazil I met Sagara sensei, that always kept saying that karate has become more like cat fights, that people are not practicing the correct way. And he always used to say: "This competitions nowadays are no fun, if you actually hit someone, u receive a foul" and I agree w/ him!

 

I wish I had trained for a few months w/ him, but there was a time he only trained black belts, and all of them say that his training has so damn hard!

 

ANd I'm not lost, I've met the best senseis in São Paulo, had the opportunity to learn from a few of them. Wich was good, but as I said, the direct students from the old days sensei, (cause almost all of them practiced w/ Sasaki, Sagara, Akamine ) are completely different karatekas that we are now. They can probably beat any other person/style or whatever, cause they had a completely different form of training that we have, and Karate back them, was completely different from wut karate is today.

 

So, Killer M. If you can defeat anyone, u're on the way of the traditional karateka, if you are being lucky enough to have this kind of training and etc. Lucky you! I wish that there were more people that thinks/practice like you here! So it would help me on my quest of finding genuine karatekas, not point searches.

 

Altought I'm lucky enough to have my sensei, that is pretty much a traditional sensei, but he knows that 90% of the students can't and wouldn't want to handle traditional training, just want points, and medals, (my sensei was a direct student from seiken Akamine ). He supports me on my quest, there are any one who thinks like me in my or many other dojos I visited.

 

Thank you for your posts.

 

It's always nice to hear every one's point of view, opinions and facts.

 

Please keep posting if you want.

 

Thank you all!

 

See ya

[Killer Miller]

You have to see into that level of training. It's difficult to explain that level of training and the concepts behind them unless you actually participated in them. I am about half way through another original article of mine that will be titled "An Evening With Hidetaka Nishiyama." This will be an article that will give you an inside look at a high level training session. Perhaps this will clear up the mis-conception of the point system, our concepts, and what the "art of perfection" is all about.

 

Stay tuned...

 

- Killer Miller -

[Rich]

As I said on here a fair while ago, all the styles you see today (as they have been taught- things are changing for the better) are actually dilutions of the original effective art(s). Each master had his own style- not codified but his way of fighting/ each kata can be seen as a complete style too.

 

In the original form(s) you would see devastating pre emptive strikes- these may be throat grabs, eye strikes, groin strikes etc. The locks and throws etc would be secondary to a well timed pre emptive attack which should end the fight in seconds.

 

It sems that reverse punches didnt exist in the original methods, a far more effective strike was used that has been diluted into this punch. Now I'm not saying a normal reverse punch cant cause serious damage but the better more fluid dynamics of the old style strike are far more devastating.

 

To get back to this art you need to strip away from the modern style- all styles are on nearly equalfooting when it comes to this.

 

The main point though is to understand psychology, environment, timing and ma-ai (a joke in sparring whatever level of contact) to be able to wipe the threat out immediately. Remeber K1 etc etc is not about real fighting any more than no contact points sparring is.

 

I hope you can find Karate, a very effective self protection system! And remember on the street nothing is guaranteed- avoidance is key. Dont be there when the bad things happen- a Budo perspective would see that as failure before your first technique even started!

 

Live well, long and in peace.

 

Rich

[tenkamusou]

Yeah! Nice post rich!

 

And I know, that on the original styles, there was only two types of kick, the chudan mae gueri ( front kick to the stomach ), and sokuto hansetsu gueri ( sokuto kick in the knee ), and them, some teachers started to introduce a few more kicks, higher kicks and etc...

 

It's obvious that things change, but tradition cannot be forgoten!

 

In my opinion you can see a lot of the traditional karate in some goju-ryu katas applications.But as you said, things sometimes change for the best, cause we know now that a lot of things that old days master used to do, are not very good for our health...

 

but anyways... nice post... thanx...

[Guest]

And I know, that on the original styles, there was only two types of kick

 

Who told you that? People too often make these broad-reaching claims when in fact, no one really knows if it is true or not, because the 'original styles' have been lost through time.

[tenkamusou]

well... if have any doubts about it... ask your sensei... read books about old masters... read nagamine's book... have you ever heard about an old master whose techniques was high kicks?

 

and besides shotokan, wich style uses high kicks in katas?

 

And u do shorin don't you? If I'm not mistaken there are no high kicks in any kata right? We have a 10th. dan here named Shinzato, he can confirm wut I'm saying... he's a shorin master.

 

And there's a Uechi-Ryu book ( that I've gotta check the author now. sorry ) that also says it...

 

and If I'm not mistaken, there are some masters that used to do sokuto in the chest level. but I'm not sure about that.

 

The cool things about old master is that each one had a special thing, jumping, a kind of punch and etc... but as far as I've read or learnt, no high kicks...

 

see ya

[Guest]

No, I didn't mention anything about high kicks. You claimed that there were only two types of kicks, the front kick and the kick to the knee. And no, we don't use high kicks in my style of karate.

 

If you are refering to Shoshin Nagamine's book, "The Essense of Okinawan Karate-Do," then yes, I have read it. I didn't find it particularly good, except that the kata reference is fairly comprehensive. In my opinion, in order for a martial arts text to be good, it must offer something in the way of substance. It needs to offer something more than the ubiquitous history of karate, biography of the author, some philosophy, some excersize tips, and a photo album of the author performing various techniques and kata. No application was discussed at all for any of the katas in the edition that I own. It is a beginner's text.

[Killer Miller]

Shotokan, and other traditional Karate, don't implement high kicks because you're are off balance. If you raise the Knee/leg high-up to the point that it causes you to lean and be not able to properly bend your supporting knee, this throws off your center of gravity and can easily be pushed over with a finger. It also slows down your recovery time back to a ready position for your next technique execution...

 

- Killer Miller -