Ever tried to do empty hand kata using weapons?

[Shorinryu Sensei]

I saw some comments like this on another thread, and thought it might be an interesting discussion.

 

Have you ever taken an empty hand kata, such as the Pinan's, Nahachi's, Passai, etc and tried to do them with a weapon? I have, and it's really quite an experience!

 

I've done them with the bo, jo, sai, kama, tongfa, niton bo and *shudder* nunchaku.

 

The only problem I ever had was on pinan yandan once, using kama..on the hammerfirst to the side with the front snap kick, I managed to stab the point of the kama into the ball of my right foot..about 15 minutes before my class started!

 

I bled like a stuck pig! ARGH! Talk about embarassing when the students started coming in, and of course..had to ask how I did that!

 

[stl_karateka]

In isshinRyu one of the weapons kata is Kusanku-Sai.

 

I started doing a bunch other katas with sai and kama when I switched to ShorinRyu

 

For Pinan Yodan I would just do the kick or the strike...not both....you know why!

 

Just like in Kusanku --- in empty hand there is a strike and a kick from the cross stance....in kusanku sai the kicks are taken out.

 

I guess hind sight is 20/20 huh!

[Shorinryu Sensei]

For Pinan Yodan I would just do the kick or the strike...not both....you know why!

 

I guess hind sight is 20/20 huh!

 

Oh brother..you're right on that one! We don't do weapons on empty hand kata's as the norm, but I like to do it for something different, and I think it's fun and challenging.

[TangSooGuy]

Well, I've done Pyung Ahn (pinan) E dan with a Staff, and I've done Bassai Dai with Sai....

[Jussi Häkkinen]

When doing empty handed kata with weapons, think about whether the ashi sabaki and tai sabaki are suitable for weapon use. Usually not.

 

There are plenty of kobudo-kata already, you know...no need to convert unarmed kata to an armed one.

[Shorinryu Sensei]

When doing empty handed kata with weapons, think about whether the ashi sabaki and tai sabaki are suitable for weapon use. Usually not.

 

There are plenty of kobudo-kata already, you know...no need to convert unarmed kata to an armed one.

 

Of course there are many kobudo kata, but using the karate kata with weapons just gives you a different perspective for the same kata. It appears you do Shorinryu also, but a different branch of it than I do (should be close though), but we teach that the weapons are just an extension of the empty hand techniques.

 

Agreed?

 

And if so, then why not use weapons with the karate kata?

 

I don't teach this to my students, but those that are using weapons (brown belt and above) I do encourage them to experiment in this fashion. it makes for some interesting applicatiosn sometimes! lol

 

With Respect

[sindian]

Yea, I do this from time to time. It can be pretty fun.

[Jussi Häkkinen]

Of course there are many kobudo kata, but using the karate kata with weapons just gives you a different perspective for the same kata. It appears you do Shorinryu also, but a different branch of it than I do (should be close though), but we teach that the weapons are just an extension of the empty hand techniques.

 

Agreed?

 

Somewhat. It doesn't, however, make the distance, footwork and body shifting differences a slight bit less significant. I feel that these issues are important in unarmed fighting, but even more crucial in armed techniques. The ashi sabaki (footwork), tai sabaki (body movement) and kamae (positioning) of unarmed kata are designed for unarmed use. If you wish to train same kata with weapons (might be done, with heavy changes, if one really understands the tichiki (application), you must take these issues very seriously. At least if you wish to create a kata that actually might have some fighting application.

And if so, then why not use weapons with the karate kata?

 

By all means, train with weapons. However, consider the issues I said about it. Weapons are all about playing with distance and positioning. That is why I actually think that kobudo-kata are more beneficial for learning the actual use of the weapons - they're pre-made to that format. Of course, later one should experiment with different ideas - maybe fixing an unarmed kata for weapon use (I would probably go for sai or tonfa - their distance is still somewhat comparable to empty handed kata. And that was a freely put statement).

 

By the way, if you wish to read more about Shorin-Ryu Seibukan (Kyan Chotoku lineage): http://www.seibukan.org

[SaiFightsMS]

I think the work I have done using weapons in some of my empty hand katas have really added to my understanding of how movements might be applied. And that what we may learn in class in terms of application is just scratching the surface. A form does not truly become part of you unitl you begin to see your own interpretations of what the movements lead you to.

[searcher]

I am in aggrement with sai in that when I have used a weapons with an empty hand kata it has lead me to a greater understanding of the bunkai of the kata. It is not to say that everything has to work out perfectly all of the time and that we are to only use weapons with the kata from column A and not with the kata from column B. It is all about the experience that you gain from experimentation.