Article: Xingyi (A Kung Fu internal style) and Grappling

[ChangWuJi]

I've decided to post this here and not just the Kung Fu forum, because it implies to alot of different martial arts, and is a very interesting article. It can be found on

 

http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/crushing/tadzio/grappling01.html:

 

"Xingyi and Grappling:

 

-The Situation Today

 

At this point, we fighters all have heard about how efficient grappling methods are in special Brazilian Gracie Jiujitsu. Most of us have already seen BJJ fighters destroying opponents in NHB events such as the Ultimate Fighting Championship, Pride and others. We also know many Gong Fu practitioners that train BJJ or Wrestling as well. They say that Gong Fu is very good as a "striking art" or for your "standing game", but doesn't have any ground-fighting. In fact, these people are afraid to face BJJ fighters in a match, because deep in their hearts, they know they are going down. And if a BJJ fighter takes you to the ground and you don't know what to do, you really have a good reason to be afraid.

 

Why we have this situation nowadays? Why are so many people scared to face BJJ fighters? Are this BJJ fighters that good? Do they have fantastic or secret methods to take you to the ground? Why is it that 99.9% of the people who learn Gong Fu don't trust in what they have learnt and have to "complement" their skills with BJJ or Wrestling?

 

There is something wrong; that's for sure. Something very wrong. BJJ and Grappling arts are not new; they have been around for centuries and centuries. Why then, since the end of the 80's, have we had this Grappling arts boom? The Gong Fu flying kicks were so famous ... what happened to the "Iron Palm" masters? What happened to the "death touch" that some teachers used to say was the secret to beat anyone, anywhere, no matter how big the opponent could be? Where are the famous Shaolin palm strikes? What happened to the internal arts ability to Fa Jin? Since these people are so good, where did they all go, and why do they need to learn BJJ?

 

-The Tradition goes down

 

So these guys all disappeared. Why? Because they were a fraud. These people that called themselves "teachers" or "Masters" were never able to teach anything, for they really never had any real knowledge about Gong Fu. The only knowledge they really had or have is about how to fool people and empty their pockets.

 

What happened is that after a certain point in Chinese recent history, the communist government decided that the country would never achieve a level of progress if its people would still believe in traditional old culture. At that point ( the end of the 60's ) the government decided that if the country would progress, they would have to fight again what they then called " The four olds"; they were

 

1 - Old culture

 

2 - Old habits

 

3 - Old traditions

 

4 - Old way of thinking

 

It's unnecessary to say that the martial arts where considered to be among all the four olds. To practice any martial art was then forbidden for 10 years and several teachers and Masters were sent to work stations to be "purified through hard work." Many others were sent to jail and suffered with things that we don't need to talk about here. It was a dark period of time in history where students would turn Masters down. In 1972, almost at the end of the Cultural Revolution, the Chinese government decided that it was time to bring China again to international relations and open the country's door. Part of this plan was to (re)introduce to the rest of the world the Chinese culture, or better saying, what the government decided it was interesting to present as "real Chinese culture". Almost every aspect of the old Chinese culture were reformulated, and the martial arts were also reformulated.

 

Because of the Revolution, many styles completely disappeared, many were kept in secrecy and many others couldn't be found in China anymore, only abroad. A lot of styles were still out there, but to bring them back on scene would require a great effort by the government. It was decided then that many officials were to travel the whole China searching for whatever trace they could find about these old styles of Gong Fu. The process, as expected, took many years, and the government, during the time, compiled information about several styles of fighting. It was a survey. It was created then a kind of synthetic Gong Fu, a hybrid martial art, that didn't have in fact it's own characteristic. In 1973 the communist party publish the "New rules for Wu Shu competitions." At this point any Gong Fu techniques that had offensive or defensive movement were gradually replaced by more gymnastic maneuvers. The tendency to have more dance-type actions in Gong Fu appeared. This caused an argument over what the acrobatics movements really meant; that is to say Wu Shu should be Wu ( martial art) and not Wu ( dance ) " Kang Gewu - 5000 years of Chinese martial arts. With the new "opening" plan in action, teams and teams of Wu Shu practitioners ( I see them more as dancers ) were sent abroad to show the world the new Chinese culture. To Western eyes, Chinese that could perform incredible jumps and astonishing kicks would definitely be very proficient fighters. They were so wrong... any Ballet guy could make the same movements with some training and good instruction. The new Wu Shu then invaded West in a time where very few people were teaching Asian martial arts. It was a lie. And they bought it. So this dance, created by the government, without any martial application, this came to be known as Gong Fu. What people believed to be Gong Fu was nothing more than a lie.

 

The Dragon sleeps, while the Tiger is awake

 

While the west (especially the U.S.) was learning how to " dance " Wu Shu, the BJJ was growing very fast in Brazil. Since the 20's (1920), the Gracie family (mainly through Helio Gracie) began to modify the old Japanese JJ into a highly efficient martial art. At that time, in Brazil, people had a wrong idea about what a true martial art should be. There, most part of the people also believed in the so called "Gong Fu or Karate" "Masters" and their fantastic techniques. Helio Gracie, Carlson Gracie, their brothers and cousins begun to show the world, that people needed more reality in what they practiced. They begun to show the world that you can't be a fighter and a dancer.

 

The style they developed began to spread very fast.

 

"Many times I couldn't make the movements my brother was teaching, because to make this movements you needed to use a lot of power, and I was a weak boy. So I began to adapt this old JJ to myself. Once someone asked me if I created a new fighting style; I just inserted a kind of a crowbar in each movement. I had to use a crowbar to be able to do what I do without using strength. And then, I reinvented the JJ" - Helio Gracie.

 

It's important to understand then, that while the Chinese were worried about showing the world a "new" kind of Gong Fu, something beautiful and nice to see, the Gracie family was worried about developing a fighting system that could be used by any person, know matter how strong the opponent. While the Chinese were "dancing around the world," the BJJ was being tested over and over, like Helio Gracie said: "The goal of my life was to teach JJ. We needed someone to be the protector of the new BJJ, and I was this person, as a fighter. So every time someone would have doubts about my techniques, I would step in to the ring and destroy the guy, to prove the efficiency of our fight." The Gracies were fighting everyone back then: kickboxers, Gong Fu fighters, karate, Judo, wrestlers ... everyone was going down. Soon, they were in the U.S., and America found out about the Gracie JJ. And most of the guys that didn't believe in it, also went down. Rickson and Rorion Gracie fought almost everyone. They never chose the opponents. Like their father, Helio Gracie, they have the mind set of the warrior, while the people who were learning Gong Fu had the mind set of the dancers.

 

-The Myths

 

Because of the almost total efficiency of BJJ and because everybody was going down, some myths were created back in the 80's and early 90's:

 

1 - All the fights begin standing and end up on the ground - there is nothing you can do about it.

 

2 - If a BJJ fighter takes you to the ground, then it's all over.

 

3 - If a BJJ fighters achieves the "mounted" position, it's all over.

 

4 - You have to learn how to fight on the ground

 

5 - Mixed martial arts are the best.

 

These statements are, in fact, ridiculous. But I understand why most part of people believe them. Having in mind the Wu Shu dance, you really begin to think that you have to learn ground fighting and really begin to believe in these "myths." But they are not true at all. Let's analyze them.

 

1 - All the fights begin standing and end on the ground - Why is that? Why do fights end up on the ground? What happens is that people, first of all, are not learning real Gong Fu, so they don't have the necessary technique to avoid being taken to the ground. In how many ways you can take a person to the ground? Mainly 3 or 4, and the other techniques are only variations. Learn how to counter these movements, like the famous "double leg" or the Brazilian JJ "baiana." They are not difficult to defend. The Gong Fu style you practice should give you tools so you can deal with this techniques. What is lacking to the Gong Fu people out there ( in terms of Xing Yi ):

 

a - The mind set. The beast inside.

 

b - Strong Stances - San Ti Shi training is vital here - spend a lot of time on it.

 

c - Chen Jin

 

d - How to Fa Jin, and how to release power using short movements.

 

e - How to use elbows, knees, hips, and shoulders. The 2 man form Pi Wuxing and the bear form are to be trained very well.

 

f - Reality training. Full power sparring with no protection.

 

g - A good teacher.

 

In case you don't lack the above mentioned things and BJJ fighters still take you to the ground, well, then, train more.

 

2 & 3 - If a BJJ fighter takes you to the ground or achieve the mounted position, it's all over - So again here, we have a common problem. People don't know real Xing Yi Quan. They think they know or, worse, they are conscious they don't know but they want to fool other people. And again, what people (most people) know as Xing Yi is a lie. That's why myths like this spread so fast, because almost no one out there can prove they are only myths. If these people really know Xing Yi, they would understand that XY is not based on techniques, but rather in principles. It is in fact very simple to understand. Teachers train their student in the use of techniques that work for certain situations. At the moment their the opponent makes a different movement, they can't react , because they were not taught how to counter these movements; they didn't learn the proper techniques to apply. So at this point you can already understand that to know techniques is but a single step. More important than this, is to know the mechanics that work behind the techniques. You have to know the concepts. Concepts work in any situation; they work standing or on the ground. A very good example is about how to defend a punch. You have to look deep in to the movement (the punch) and understand that before being a punch, it's a straight force. So if you learn how to defend straight force attacks, and not only a punch, you can defend (using the same movement) a punch, a frontal kick, a side kick, a wrestlers double leg or a BJJ "baiana," for all these movements are in fact straight forces in motion. All good Xing Yi fighters know this. Well, at least they should. And more than anything principles are always principles, standing or on the ground.

 

4 - You have to learn how to fight on the ground - Wrong. Totally wrong. This is exactly the mistake BJJ guys never made. High levels of skill in any martial come only through specialization in a certain art. How do you expect to be proficient in Xing Yi also learning JJ, or wrestling? Why is so easy to take the Gong Fu guys to the ground? Because they are not specialists. At the other hand, BJJ fighters spend hours and hours at BJJ schools learning... guess what? Yes, only BJJ. After a couple of years, they are specialists in BJJ. Do grapplers learn boxing techniques? Yes, they do. But just a little. They know they will always be ground fighting specialists and they understand they only have to learn enough so they won't be knocked down in the process of taking you to the ground. They also understand that boxing is a very very small part of what they need, because the rely in the ground fighting techniques to finish the opponent. What do Gong Fu guys do ? Exactly what they shouldn't. Instead of training what they are supposed to, Gong Fu, they decide that they have to divide their time between Gong Fu and BJJ or wrestling. They should do what BJJ fighters do. Train a lot in what their are supposed to be specialists ( Gong Fu ) and have a minimum knowledge about ground fighting, so that in the case they go to the ground, they will no be finished. So what happens today is that grapplers are extremely good in what they do ( specialists ) and have a minimum knowledge of the standing game ( a lot of people is doing crosstraining and they are very good standing and on the ground, but the best fighters are still the specialists ). At the other hand, Gong Fu fighters are not so good standing and are also not so good on the ground. Some might even argue that " I train only Gong Fu and I still don't feel safe! ". Well my friend, the question is: what kind of Gong Fu are you training? If it is the " kick boxing " kind of Gong Fu, you will never feel safe anyway. For this is only sport. Kick boxing is ok, but don't expect do beat a man like Rickson Gracie with that. You need a real martial art. You need Xing Yi Quan.

 

5 - Mixed martial arts are the best - Nothing, nothing is better than specialization. When people have only part of a knowledge, something incomplete, they have to look out for other sources of knowledge.Imagine you have a half filled glass of water (your Gong Fu) but you have to fill the glass up. The problem is that you don;t have water anymore (you have a limited knowledge about the Gong Fu principles). In this case you have to find out other liquids to fill the glass up. You have a little bit of orange juice (grappling) and you have a bit of, say tequila (kick boxing). At the end, the glass is filled up, but the truth is that you have only a bit of everything. So as a fighter, you are not very good in grappling, not very good in kick boxing and not very good at Gong Fu. You have a bit of everything and at the same time you have nothing.

 

It's true that many BJJ are now going a bit deep into boxing and Thai boxing, but take a look at the best guys ever : Rickson Gracie, Helio Gracie, Carlson Gracie, and Rolls Gracie; they are or were absolute specialist in BJJ. How about the famous Che Yi Zhai, Guo Yun Sheng, Wang Xiang Zhai ? Ok. Tell this guys they should mix a lot of martial arts together. Guys that never lost a single fight after they were well trained.

 

-Conclusion

 

The objective of this article is not to teach any Xing Yi Quan techniques, or teach you how to handle a grappler. This things can't be learn through the Net. For this you need a good teacher that really understands the principle of XY. What I do want to do, is to clarify all these myths that were created around the grappling arts. If you learn Xing Yi from a good teacher, you have all the conditions to defeat a grappler. The problem right know is that since 1920's BJJ was being perfected and focusing itself in street fight efficiency, while Chinese Gong Fu, as we saw, was being modified into a kind of beautiful dance.

 

I want to add here that the attitude of some Chinese masters adds a lot to the Gong Fu world's situation today. But this is a subject for another article, the one entitled "Did Chinese martial arts missed a bit of reality over the years." ... coming soon ..."

 

 

 

 

 

[ This Message was edited by: ChangWuJi on 2001-10-17 22:55 ]

[Angus]

This guy is fearful of grappling and he doesn't evne realise it. He's training striking and grappling defense. Simply, and i WILL put this down (in all my ignorance in 12-13 years of crosstraining in many arts), YOU MUST LEARN SOME FORM OF GRAPPLING OTHERWISE IN THE OFF CHANCE THAT YOU GET TAKEN DOWN, IT MAY COST YOU YOUR LIFE IF U DON'T HAVE THIS TRAINING... what this fool fails to realise is that u very often don't see things coming (say an attack from behind - d'uh!). I think this person is afraid to get with the times, and realise that to crosstrain is to almost ensure your ability to survive.

 

"In case you don't lack the above mentioned things and a BJJ guy still takes you down, well, then, train some more." - This bloke is, purely and simply, a MORON!!

 

He argues that concepts are the same whether you are on the standing or on the ground. >insert a plethora of obscenities here< The principles are completely different. Once u r on the ground then u have lost the ability to pivot, sidestep, twist, or anything. If the bloke gets a mount position on u he can quite easily avoid a hail of punches by applying a closed body lapel choke and can EASILY kill you from this position. BLERGH!!!!

 

I think that by learning one art you develope a closed mind, i found this particularly with the Goju karate guys. It's closed minded fools like this that promote hatred between people of other styles... grrrr!!

 

 

He even says that people who do GONG FU (even though the art does not exist - IT'S WUSHU!!) fail to specialise because they go and learn grappling. But he says the BJJ guys spend all their time just doing BJJ. THEN he contradicts himself by saying that the BJJ guys learn boxing, why?, because they always know that they will be specialist grapplers! >more swearing< He has a baseless argument that is not only stupid, but makes no sense whatsoever!!! I swear if i wasn't a moderator i'd do some hardcore balistic use of the english language!!

 

I don't see the difference in having specialised in stiking and having minimum knowledge in grappling, and having specialised in grappling and having small knowledge of striking. I see that as all evened out. It all depends on the common sense of a fighter. I'm not scared of grapplers, i know that i can mix up my grappling and my striking nicely, and the only thing that will defeat me in the end is if the guy trains harder than i do. I say again, this bloke is an imbecile!!

 

He argues total commitment to one art, but then says that a little knowledge in something else is useful. Oh my god, did this person proof read their rant?

 

"Kickboxing is good, but don't expect that do beat a man like Rickson Gracie. You need a real martial art. You need Xing Yi Quan"... HFJ HFJSD JKSDGFJSDGFSDG USAFHDSG FJBVBYSDEDYFG SDH!!!! BLERGH!! FART!! WHEESE!!! CHOKE! GAG!! SON OF A ********************************************* That really pissed me off!! This person should be placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds!

 

"Mixed martial arts are the best (he tries to refute this) - nothing is better than specialisation.

 

You can specialise in one aspect of the arts and not have to stick with the one style - that creates ignorance. Idiot.

 

The analogy of the water, orange juice, and tequila is also baseless and stupid. Even though the glass is not full of PURE substances, is it not still full? Blah!!

 

Did those chinese guys with the funny names ever fight against opponents who had done anything else but Wushu? Did they fight Thai Boxers? Grapplers? Kickboxers? Crosstrainers? Kenpo fighters? eh? eh?

 

He says that since the 1920's BJJ was being perfected. Nothing can be perfected, not one single art. The only thing that can be perfected is YOUR style... train however teh hell u want to, but keep an open mind.

 

I'm going to bed, i have a headache.

 

Angus

 

_________________

 

"Your Anger is a Gift" - Rage Against the Machine

 

Angus Argyle - Moderator of the General Karate and Jiu Jitsu Forums.

 

Freestyle Martial Artist.

 

[ This Message was edited by: Angus on 2001-10-18 01:55 ]

[Iron Arahat]

I think to put it in a nutshell:

 

1) There is a misconception that training in everything "crosstraining" will make you better than training in one single art; however, this would stand for training tkd, karate, kung-fu, and muay thai at the same time. Not something like karate and judo which are very different, or bjj and karate, or sambo and boxing.

 

2) I do believe that the all fights end up on the ground is a myth.

 

3) I think most people do "specialize" irregardless. We all have strengths and weaknesses. Even within a single style, a person will stick with what they are good at ie. if you can't do a spin kick, chances are you will never use it, even if your'e system has it.

 

It come down to who trains the hardest, and is best at using the tools they have...

[Angus]

Whoever first stated that all fights end up on the ground should be shot in the genitals with a BB gun. That's a ridiculous thing to say.

 

It's most commonly considered that a little more than 80% of REAL fights end up on the ground. And if it's a REAL fight then the loser is most often on the ground KO'd or in severe pain.

 

I really don't like the way this dude closes his mind, i found it offensive to my style of training.

 

I've trained in a lot of different striking arts, and it HAS been handy because i have learned how to take on different opponents and learned heaps of different ways to counter certain situations.

 

Here's an anaolgy: It's like driving - you'll never be an expert driver until u've done it in all kinds of conditions: Sunny, snowy, raining, sleet, oily road, dirt road, rocky road, mountainous terrain etc etc... This guy wants to drive on the highway for the rest of his life and claim that he's an expert driver. It's just not on.

 

Angus

 

 

[ChangWuJi]

Kung Fu is for killing (self defense), grappling is for sport. You can't more around while grappling and you get kicked with boots.

 

8 step praying Mantis has grappling in it, as alot of other Kung Fu styles.

 

It's called Low Mantis, it is fighting from a fallen position , usually taping or locking the legs to pull oppnents to the ground then they follow up with a joint lock or a submission technique!

 

BTW, ever heard of Chi'n Na?

 

I heard that in Ultimate Fighting Championship #6 in Buffalo N.Y, Joel Sutton (studies this 8 step praying Mantis) Beat the helll out of a 300 Lbs guy, the bloodiest U.F.C fight in history, and split his head open with low Mantis and even had the 8 step shirt on.

 

BTW here is what else I read on Gracie:

 

"Gracie Jiu-Jitsu along with the Gracie dynasty was destroyed by a mere Japanese Pro-Wrestler by the name of Kazushi Sakuraba, he went through the top guys of the Gracie Family like nothing (besides Rickson Gracie because he dosn't want to tarnish the family name further more) Also Sakuraba made non-believers believers that Gracie Jiu-Jitsu has many flaws"

 

here is more:

 

"The whole statement saying BJJ fighters dominating events like UFC and Pride is ridiculous really, from 1997-2000 some of the top BJJ fighters fell victim to Sakuraba in Pride and it changed everyones opinion on BJJ. 10 prominant BJJ fighters to be exact like Royce Gracie, Renzo Gracie, Ryan Gracie, Royler Gracie, Vitor Belfort, Anthony Macias, Ebenezer Braga, Carlos Newton, Conan Silvera. I don't know about some people but Gracie Jiu-Jitsu is played out at least Helio's side that is, Royce refuses to grow with the times and still thinks it's the early 90's and stuck where he's at, the BJJ community considers him only in the blue belt class now, and if people think he's all that the last time I saw Royce Trying to prove himself in a full Sport Jiu-Jitsu tournament, he was out on the floor unconcious after Wallid Ismail choked him out."

 

I don't think you can put an athelete up against a master and expect the athlete to win.

 

that's not a slam on cross training at all. i just think that it's a whole different ball game when you put anyone up against someone of a master's level. do i think Yip Man (Wing Chun) would beat ken shamrock or whoever is popular these days in the nhb events? absolutely.

 

maybe i'm wrong, but i doubt it.

 

A master, who devote their entire lives to the study of ONE style are miles ahead of any hot-headed guy with a flicky backfist or sidekick.

 

And yes, most fights endinng or even going to ground is a myth. It is a myth spread by Western boxers/grapplers that fight crazy with rage and grab each other. A technitian (true martial artist) would never fight uncontrolly like this, and would use strikes, joint locks, etc. to end the fight as quickly as it started and get ready for more opponents lurking in the shadows.

 

[ This Message was edited by: ChangWuJi on 2001-10-18 22:53 ]

[Angus]

I never argued that BJJ was invincible, and that is why. The proof u gave of the Japanese dude. But the story sounds a little off if he doesn't want to fight Rickson cos he 'doesn't want to disgrace the family furhter'. What utter rubbish.

 

I swear if i hear another person say that BJJ is a sport i will implode! It's a deadly lethal art, just like everything else.

 

I don't agree with sticking to one art though, it's not a good way to train. Sorry, it's just not. Bruce Lee crosstrained - he was the ultimate crosstrainer, Phillip Rhee crosstrained, Bob Jones (founder of zendokai) crosstrained, this is how you progress. Not by sticking stubbornly to one art.

 

Angus

 

 

[Jack]

Interesting debate going on here. Keep it up, very good reading

[Angus]

Yeah, i think the deabte's over though. I think we just have to agree to disagree.

 

Angus

 

 

[Karateka_latino]

I do believe in crosstraing.. i think its good if you can have the chance to explore in others styles, learn the techniques, how they fight, etc..

 

But I don't believe that ALL fights or even the 80% of the fights ends one the ground...I've seen a Lot of street fights i have been involved in some.. and i must say that the 60% of them haven't ended on the ground..

 

But i still believe you must learn how to fight on the ground, you never know when you are going to be there.. maybe not become yourself a "Gracie" but at least know how to escape from the diferent positions that the ground have.

 

Also, learn how to fight on clinch is a good idea and not many people take that on cosideration... maybe the fight CAN end on a clinch position if you know how to fight there.

 

Anyway, I like crosstrain, and im actually learning a Crosstrained Style.. if you want to keep in one system only , that's your bussiness, if you want to crosstrain, your bussiness too. Remember that ALL the "traditional" systems we have now were Eclectic before.

 

[Joecooke007]

Interesting. Very interesting.