okinawan and japanese karate

[Shorinryu Sensei]

Sorry I came on to this thread a bit late, but it looks like you've been doing quite well.

 

One thing I would like to mention is that you are correct by saying that many old karate masters during WWII were killed either in their service to the Japanese war machine, or as innocent civilians that were bombed on Okinawa. Very sad, and a great loss.

 

One master that escaped this and was untouched basically by the war, was Hohan Soken of Shorinryu Matsumurat Seito (Orthodox). Sensei Soken left Okinawa in 1924 and moved to Agentina to work as a photographer/dry cleaner, and didn't return to Okinawa until 1953. Soken Sensei died in 1983.

 

Soken Sensei actively taught old style Shorinryu classes in his dojo until just a few years before his death at the age of 94.

[Drunken Monkey]

excuse my ignorance on details

 

but i came across a snippet of info that said that one of the schools/styles of karate actually has the chinese white crane kung fu "manual/script" as its most revered book.

 

just want to know, do they actually practise that form/s?

[Hohan-1]

S-Te and Kirves got it all sewn up. There are a few loose ends in some of it though. As far as the term "Samurai", this Japanese term is roughly analogous to the Hogan word "Bushi" or "Peichin". For example Hohan Soken was cited by Ripley's as being the oldest living "Samurai" at one time. He was in essence of the Okinawan Peichin class and thus technically was a samurai.

 

ShuriTe (Shorin Ryu) in it's orthodox form (Seito) was influenced by Ti/Tuite/Gyakute or indigenous Okinawan fighting, Shaolin Chuan Shu, AND Jigen Ryu Kenjutsu, the Samurai art of the Satsuma Clan, the clan which ran Okinawa after the Japanese occupation. Due to his position as head of the Royal Palace Guard at Shuri castle, Sokon Matsumura was invited to learn this Japanese samurai style and became a Shihan in it. The current master of Jigen Ryu Kenjutsu when asked how much of an influence Jigen Ryu had on Karate (at least Matsumura's ShuriTe) exclaimed "no doubt that the influence was significant, but which style influenced which is the main question"! I've always found that statement to be really interesting.

 

So most likely Samurai stuff was influenced by AND influenced Toudi, at least Matsumura's (Hohan Soken's style) that is. I'd like to add that Kirves is one of the most knoweldgable karate-ka I've seen on any of these forums. His understanding of modern and classical budo/bujutsu is exemplary. Out of all the Japanese systems Kyokushinkai gets my vote as the best! Sosai Oyama would be proud!

 

As for the Hakutsuru (WHITE CRANE) kata. Hohan Soken was the only one taught this rare form. He trained in Taiwan for some years to better undertsand this "family" form which was passed to his uncle Nabe via his gandfather Sokon Matsumura. The Hakutsuru is seen only in the Matsumura Seito form of Shorin. It is a very simple form with many subtleties. But yes, in reference to your query, Shaolin and Shorin are very related (Sokon Mastumura trained there [the Fukian temple] for over 15 years, but only the Orthodox form bears any true resemblence to its Southern Shaolin predecessor.

 

Hope this helps. Have a good week.

[Shorinryu Sensei]

As for the Hakutsuru (WHITE CRANE) kata. Hohan Soken was the only one taught this rare form. He trained in Taiwan for some years to better undertsand this "family" form which was passed to his uncle Nabe via his gandfather Sokon Matsumura.

 

I bow to your knowledge Hohan-1..but I wasn't aware that O Sensei Soken was in Taiwan at all? Do you know when that was, and who he studied with there???

[Drunken Monkey]

something came up in another thread.

 

i'll just ask it properly here cos i seem to get sensible replies here.

 

can anyone tell me more about something that has been refered to here on this site as

 

shaolin kenpo/kempo karate.

 

firstly, what is the difference between the spellings of kenpo/kempo? (i'm guessing it's just that, a spelling thing)

 

and what about the name.

 

ive always been confused about it because it seems to be a mix of various names from various languages.

 

my biggest "problem", if you can call it that, is the use of shaolin AND karate in the name.

 

as you probably know, the countries have a bad history and there is no way that either country would use each others arts' names like that.

 

no chinese martial art would refer to karate and no karate would use the word shaolin (for a start they have their equivilant in the form of shorin).

 

so, what can you tell me about this?

[Goju1]

Yes, modern karate is less than 100 years old. There still are Okinawan styles that (try to) stick to older methods.

 

Interested in your opinions on Naha-Te, which was brought back to Okinawa from China in the late 1800's. Today, this would usually be called Goju-Ryu and refered to as karate, yet all of the kata are essentially Chinese (the 'S' ones) The differences between Japanese karate are obvious, but what would you consider the main differences between that karate and the Chinese style it derived from?

[aefibird]

i hear a lot of guys here say that japanese karate is not as good as okinawan karate because it doesn't teach the classical, traditional, true (or whatever you want to call it) bunkai.

 

but how much of this is true?

 

what differences are there?

 

why are there differences?

 

when did these come about?

 

is it a case of bad style or bad teachers?

 

i'm after a history lesson here so feel free to ramble.

 

I've got a question too, on a related theme.

 

I train in shotokan karate and (as far as I know) it doesn't train with weapons. However, some styles use traditional kobudo weapons, such as tonfa, bo, jo, sai. etc etc. Is this linked to the 'split' between Japanese and Okinawan karate?

 

I know a bit about shotokan, but hardly anything about other karate styles, so I'll quote Drunken Monkey and say that "I'm after a history lesson here so feel free to ramble"!

 

Thanks.

 

A.~ 1st kyu Brown belt, Shotokan.

[Sasori_Te]

Shotokan doesn't utilize weapons because Shotokan was designed to be another sport for the mainland Japanese Phys. Ed. system. You wouldn't want the kiddies to be bringing weapons to school so this aspect of training wasn't included when Funakoshi started teaching Shotokan instead of Shorin Ryu. That's the condensed version *L*

[aefibird]

Shotokan doesn't utilize weapons because Shotokan was designed to be another sport for the mainland Japanese Phys. Ed. system. You wouldn't want the kiddies to be bringing weapons to school so this aspect of training wasn't included when Funakoshi started teaching Shotokan instead of Shorin Ryu. That's the condensed version *L*

 

So do the Okinawan styles of karate continue to use weapons? And have any 'Japanese' styles of karate adapted to include traditional weaponary? I'm interested in learning to use traditional weapons, but obviously I can't do that in Shotokan because we don't train with them. Unless you count sweeping the dojo with a broom as weapons training... LOL

 

Thanks.

[Sasori_Te]

I actually shot myself in the foot with that last statement. Before anyone else says anything, some Shotokan schools may have adopted the use of traditional weapons. Everything has become a little mixed and muddled these days. The Wado Ryu and Uechi Ryu schools that I'm familiar with all have weapons programs of a traditional flavor. You just need to look around. You can probably find a Shotokan school that teaches weapons if you look for it. IF not, you sound a little disgruntled with your present style. Switch schools to one that has what you want. It's not a crime and what's a few more years to start again in a journey that can last a lifetime anyway? Good Luck