Judo's victory over Traditional jujutsu.

[TJS]

Treebranch-If I remember correctly the matches were grappling without strikes because they were competing to show whitch would be more effective for the Policeto train in and were sort of competing for that position..

 

Obviously Most Police officers would rather subdue people without strikes if possible.

[1ONEfighting]

"a judoka's mind-set isn't "how can i defend myself" it's "how can i settle this smoothly and be gentle so that neither of us has to get seriously injured". "

 

That really depends upon the individual what mindset they carry, not the art itself. I know some truly brutal judo players.

[Treebranch]

Good point TJS. Your right about the Police wanting a grappling system for subduing someone, an effective MA that doesn't rely of striking to much. I feel that it should be noted that true Jujutsu is a more well rounded system of fighting and had it been an all out death match (anything goes) the results would have been different. Not to say these Judoka of those days didn't also have Jujutsu backgrounds and would have probably held their ground. It's just that the particular competition only proves that Judo won a competition in an controlled environment for a specific purpose. Even Kano knew that Judo was not effective for the battlefield. Another little interesting note to make is that the Toyko Police at the lower ranks are trained in Judo and Karate. The higher ranking officers are trained in Jujutsu. I think that says alot.

[goshinman]

no jujutsu won't beat Judo cause...

 

"Jujustu, the art of self protection

 

Judo, the art of self perfection"

 

judoinfo.com

 

in todays god forbid non politically correct world unless your very careful(or gentle)in how you use your martial arts training you could end up behind bars. in which case you haven't won the fight. a judoka's mind-set isn't "how can i defend myself" it's "how can i settle this smoothly and be gentle so that neither of us has to get seriously injured". while it may be true you can beat a judoka in the ring(or may not be true i will not say any more), in a real life situation I(opinion) feel that judo is more condusive to modern day needs.

 

I agree and disagree with you on that. First of all, while it is true that some of the techniques in JJ can seem a bit superfluous e.g the hiji jime (v compression choke) you must remember that all of judos major submissions and throws came from Jujutsu. Jujutsu is called the gental art or the yielding art because of it's philosophy of non resistance. Most of the locks are designed to subdue and restrain an attacker. You also said Judo may be more relavant to modern day needs. Do you mean to tell me in todays society that an art that has no strikes, and no weapons training is more condusive to modern day needs

 

What I do like about both grappling styles (and grappling in general) is that the techniques aren't static and can be changed to suit my needs. The ultimate level one can reach in jujutsu is when the jujutsuka stops mimicking his shihan and takes the techniques and makes them his, thus in essense it becomes my style of jujutsu. This is a lesson that most don't understand but the old masters did, which is why some had techniques or variations of techniques that were unique to them only. For example in class I can learn how to apply jigoku-jime (hell choke) in one way. But through randori and study I might find more ways to apply it then my shihan showed me or even come up with a variation of it that is unique to me. When you can reach that point then you are truely an opponent to be reckoned with. I was taught to look at jujutsu as more a set of principals then anything. I study hakko denshin ryu jujutsu. Once I master the basics I can start to mold my own craft. It's still hakko ryu and you can still see the techniques and movements as such, but I still have my own little flavor that makes it my style.

[TJS]

Good point TJS. Your right about the Police wanting a grappling system for subduing someone, an effective MA that doesn't rely of striking to much. I feel that it should be noted that true Jujutsu is a more well rounded system of fighting and had it been an all out death match (anything goes) the results would have been different. Not to say these Judoka of those days didn't also have Jujutsu backgrounds and would have probably held their ground. It's just that the particular competition only proves that Judo won a competition in an controlled environment for a specific purpose. Even Kano knew that Judo was not effective for the battlefield. Another little interesting note to make is that the Toyko Police at the lower ranks are trained in Judo and Karate. The higher ranking officers are trained in Jujutsu. I think that says alot.

 

Yes had it been an NHB fight the Jiu jitsu practicioners proabably would have been better prepared. it just shows that Judo has more effective throws. mainly because they spend so much time live sparring with them I would imagine.

[shanemm]

i meant that if you were going to fight and didn't want to use/didn't have weapons(say at school). also it depends on the type of judo you are doing...self defense or competition. in self defense there are strikes but competition judo doesn't have any. and onefighting i was talking about a model judoka...like the kid who does his homework and studies all day after school except for judo...lastly treebranch i forgot what divisions but the U.S. military teaches it's members judo as part of basic training.

 

ps...i have seen in several places people saying that judo is diverting more and more away from it's originol form. could someone please explain this for me? thanks

[Treebranch]

TJS said:

Yes had it been an NHB fight the Jiu jitsu practicioners proabably would have been better prepared. it just shows that Judo has more effective throws. mainly because they spend so much time live sparring with them I would imagine.

 

You hit on a very important point. It's really not that Judo throws are better, there training was. Must Judo throws require you to bend your back when you throw. If you are well trained, this can be used to your advantage. Your balance is more stable with your back straight. Also, you should check out some Budo Taijutsu throws that are pretty wicked. Most of what we do is grappling, locks and chokes. The strikes create space and the opportunity for the throw or lock. It's much harder to just go in there and start grappling, it takes alot of energy and strength. The strikes help loosen the person up a bit and in that reactive moment you take them down. :)

[goshinman]

i meant that if you were going to fight and didn't want to use/didn't have weapons(say at school). also it depends on the type of judo you are doing...self defense or competition. in self defense there are strikes but competition judo doesn't have any. and onefighting i was talking about a model judoka...like the kid who does his homework and studies all day after school except for judo...lastly treebranch i forgot what divisions but the U.S. military teaches it's members judo as part of basic training.

 

ps...i have seen in several places people saying that judo is diverting more and more away from it's originol form. could someone please explain this for me? thanks

 

Judo with strikes IS jujutsu IMO! You may have a valid point about judo at school, but then again you could end up seriously hurting someone with the throws couldn't you? Jujutsu has lots of katame waza "come along" techniques that could help you in the situation you described. And as for the decline of Judo, it depends on who you ask. Some of the old timers say it is declining and some more modern peeps say it's just fine. But heck even BJJ old timers are starting to say that Bjj is too commercialized now so who knows Old timers are NEVER satisfied.

[WhiteShark]

"judo is diverting more and more away from it's originol form"

 

This sentiment is usually caused by people not knowing or not understanding the difference between original Kodokan Judo (the complete martial art) and Sport Judo (the strikeless sport). If you find a place that teaches Kodokan Judo you will see that it is quite comprehensive and lessons are very consistant due to better documentation from the very beginning. What I mean is Judo was invented to be repeatable and trainable for many people not just a bunch of secrets passed down from Teracher to premier student.

[Sens55]

Shanemm,

 

Who told you that the military teaches Judo in basic training? The military does not teach ANY art in basic training. They teach their own version, generally called Combatives. The Marine Corps has their version, which I have seen, but do not know exactly what they call. The army teaches about 1 days worth of Combatives to most. Those that are in the Infantry get more training in it, and those in the MP's get different training (similar to Hapkido). However, most of this is during their Advanced Individual Training portion, not their Basic Training.

 

And, if you were to see what Combatives entails, virtually every art on this board could look at it and claim elements of it. The military does not hold to any one art. They take elements from everywhere and put in what they think fits their needs and discard what doesn't. They have entire manuals on what they teach and they are ever evolving. Some units in the Army do frequently contract instructors in certain arts to set up a curriculum for MA training. Again, this is a unit thing, not a basic training thing. As an example, the 2 ID is stationed in Korea integrated some TKD into their PT. They felt that it would teach them a form of Combatives, work as physical training and help soldiers in understanding more of the Korean heritage of their hosts.