Rank above 5 th DAN ....true or false

[wrestlingkaratechamp]

Martial Arts can be learned for you entire life......20th dan plus

[karate_woman]

First of all, there are no new techniques in my style after your 4th Dan test. After that, you are graded on your contribution to - and understanding of - your art - books written, seminars taught, essays written, etc. You also can't go above 4th Dan without teaching full time. There are also strict guidelines for the number of years to reach each Dan level (basically the number of years between Dan rankings is the same as the Dan level you're testing for (eg to be tested for 5th Dan you must be 4th Dans for a minimum of 5 years). My only suggestion if you are concerned about legitimacy, train in what is considered a "traditional" school that is using these timeframes.

 

I would like to point out, however, that the invention of Dan rankings is recent, and that the inventors of these traditional styles wouldn't have reached 10th Dan by the time they died, let alone when they invented their styles. Think about it for a moment: Goju was invented by Chojun Miyagi when he was quite a young man, and he died in his 60's. He was well respected, and had the more traditional titles (Renshi,Hanshi) given to him. There were no Dan rankings in Goju until after his death in 1953. My point is just that we shouldn't get too hung up on rank in and of itself.

[alanseijas]

Personally, I am happy with my Sho-Dan rank. I don't even have any interest in testing above it. I started training in 1983, and I think that this 8th + dan stuff is ridiculous. Especially in my beloved style of Isshinryu because the leading authority alive today is master A. J. Advincula 7th Dan. He told me that Master Shimabuku promoted him to 7th, and he will die a 7th. He's a true master, and a hell of a great guy.

[searcher]

I have always been lead to believe that the ranks up to 5th dan are what the style has done for you and above 5th is what you have done for the style Kyokushin Karate founder Mas Oyama refused to be promoted above 5th dan for that very reason.

[iolair]

I also understood that 5th Dan was the highest rank awarded for skill in Karate, and higher ranks were awarded for your "services to Karate". There's no implication that a 10th Dan is technically any better than a 5th Dan.

[Sasori_Te]

karate_woamn has an excellent point. Itosu, Azato, Matsumura and all those old masters never had any rank per say. They were simply considered masters of their respective arts because of their knowledge, skill and reknown. All of these rank debates are exactly why, as I posted in another post, I won't wear rank anymore. That way, when I teach, my students will stay because of what they are learning not because of some pretty piece of paper with my name on it or a belt with little red stripes. It's all so ridiculous.

[tofu]

If you cannot promote someone to the same rank as you are, then how are there 10th dans? By the same reasoning, you could also say that there cannot be any ranks, because a tenth dan could promote his students to 9th. These students could never promote anyone beyond 8th, then those 8th dans can't promote beyond 7th ... and so on until we have a world full of 10th kyus.

 

Wow. I find this a very good point. I'm not sure about anything else, but a 5th dan should be able to promote someone to the same level. What about those who feel they've gone beyond their teacher? And what if the teacher agrees and feels the same way? Hmm.

[kempocos]

TOFU wrote

 

"Wow. I find this a very good point. I'm not sure about anything else, but a 5th dan should be able to promote someone to the same level. What about those who feel they've gone beyond their teacher? And what if the teacher agrees and feels the same way? Hmm"

 

The 5th dan can simply ask his instructor to test the person. I think you will fnd that many FEEL the surpased thier teacher, they often start thier own system and promote themselves several levels. You will also find they are often wrong.

 

In regards to promoting to same rank that is part of the DAN ranking system. For example a person is awarded a 5th dan this mean he knows all it takes to be a 5th dan, and is ready to learn the skills of a 6th dan. Then until he completes all it takes to go from 5th to 6th how can he judge if a person is ready to take that same task on.

 

As always IMHO

[Sho-ju]

karate_woamn has an excellent point. Itosu, Azato, Matsumura and all those old masters never had any rank per say. They were simply considered masters of their respective arts because of their knowledge, skill and reknown. All of these rank debates are exactly why, as I posted in another post, I won't wear rank anymore. That way, when I teach, my students will stay because of what they are learning not because of some pretty piece of paper with my name on it or a belt with little red stripes. It's all so ridiculous.

 

I had read that the Okinawans did in fact use the Chineses sash system. I think it was in the lastest Martial Arts. If you look at pictures of Chosen Miyagi he does wear a sash, I can't say if it was for rank.

 

I was happy with my shodan as well. I didn't test for my nidan until I had to.

[CloudDragon]

While all of the points above are excellent in their own merits we might want to look at this in another way.

 

Way back in history (pre-WWII days) the number of practicing martial artists was probably onehundredfold less than today. There were few, if any sanctioning bodies as there are today. So all anyone needed to know was who had a teaching license in their area, and there were bound to be few of them. Now flash forward with me to today. Look in your local phone book and see how many Dojos are listed. Now realize that many phone books have similar amounts of these Dojo listed. Many of these schools belong to associations, associations use a chain of command to serve their members as you can't expect the president of an association to do all of the work, so other (junior) members assist the president. In the case of an international organization there may need to be people in continental, national, region, state, area, and maybe even city levels repesenting an association. The people in the association need to be recognized not only by the title of their position but by something indicating their experience, like educational degrees or military rank. So now we have a use and reason for the degree system to exist.

 

Here is another view, if you are in school and earn your diploma, what do you do after you get the sheepskin? You leave. This is like the karate black belt and the need that many people feel to be recognized for every thing that they do. You are a school owner who doesn't want to lose students after getting their black belt (graduation), so you add belt degrees, now people get their pats on the back and you as an owner get to collect tidy sums for testing, but here is the problem, as the instructor you can't promote anyone higher than you so what to do? Turn yourself into a 10th dan! Yeah! that's the ticket!

 

So there you have it, a couple of theories on the development and use of the black belt degrees. if anyone has more thoughts on this I'd love to read them