Karate vs. Kickboxing and Muay Thai

[Okinawan Warrior]

unfortunately, you've never been to a good kickboxing class.

 

Please can you tell me what a good kickboxing class is? The instructor in the class was former world champion Robert Smith. Also you said kickboxers do have control but it doesnt show due to they usually fight full contact. I am yet to meet a kickboxer with any control in class.

[SevenStar]

I'd say Karate was far superior than Kickboxing.[/b]

 

and I'd disagree.

 

Karate has many more moves and much more knowledge.

 

It does have more "moves" and may or may not have more knowledge...knowledge comes from experience, and that will vary from fighter to fighter. As far as "moves" that's a good and bad thing. since you fought semi pro, how many times did you use an ox-jaw hand in a fight? a ridgehand? what about a flying sidekick? you spend all that time training so many techniques - most of which you will never even use - while the kickboxer/thai boxer repetitively trains the same core techniques that he will fight with. there's an old saying: fear the man who practices one punch 1,000 times more than the man who practices 1,000 punches one time.

 

Kickboxers tend to have no control what so ever and have to make contact where as karate can stop the kick without trying to kill someone if needed.

 

Not true at all. kickboxers have plenty of control. however, if you're sparring full contact, that's exactly what it is - full contact. If you're just playing around, or sparring in class, especially with a newer guy, sure we can use control.

 

I have been to quite a few kickboxing classes and found them to be nothing more than fitness classes with a few bad techniques added in.

 

unfortunately, you've never been to a good kickboxing class.

 

Of course it all comes down to opinion, I've allways beleived that Kickboxing comes from Karate-Do

 

I agree with you there...kinda it doesn't necessarily come from karate - don wilson was a kung fu guy, and many tkd guys competed. kickboxing is more of a format than a style. people whose style is kickboxing merely train under the kickboxing ruleset. I've trained karate and currently train muay thai, but when I fight american rules, it's still kickboxing...that is merely a format.

[SevenStar]

Please can you tell me what a good kickboxing class is? The instructor in the class was former world champion Robert Smith. Also you said kickboxers do have control but it doesnt show due to they usually fight full contact.

 

I am yet to meet a kickboxer with any control in class.

 

That' lends itself to my argument - it wasn't a good class. I've never heard of him, but world champ or not, if you can't use control on a newbie, there's a problem there. We have plenty of control. I can kick you softly, I can kick you moderately, or I can break your bones. I don't have to go balls out all the time. I have control.

 

In a good kickboxing class, you are learning solid techniques, not bad ones as you mentioned. if you were learning bad techniques, you were in a sucky class. How long were you there?

[SevenStar]

what organization did he compete under? I can't find anything about him on the net.

[Radok]

Karate fighting techniques are mostly geared toward neck breaks, ripping skin with grabbing techniques, armars, throws, and takedowns. That is the essence of Katas. If you are learning true Okinawan Karate, not Sport *, the techniques are geared to kill people, not a Kickboxing match. So a muay thai fighter will own a Karate guy in the ring, But a Karate guy against an equally skilled muay thai fighter on the street... no contest. You have to remember, muay thai is a sport, Okinawans were making a style to kill everyone who invaded. They mixed Okinawan Boxing, Japanese kickboxing, and Chinese Kung fu. They conditioned alot like the thais did, against trees, rocks, ect. If Karate is done properly, it is far superior to kickboxing on the street.

[Okinawan Warrior]

but when you fight, you don't fight in the deep stance... that is for training purposes.

 

Id rather fight in a low stance, Kickboxers that are light on their feet do not have as much power. Kickboxing I think is purely a sport. Its not true that a kickboxer will "own" a karate style in the ring. However karate shouldnt be a sport and as far as i can see will only ever loose on points. In the street yes karate would kill kickboxing but id say it was also evenly matched in the ring. Karate is good enough to compete at the highest level even though it is not bread for competiton like kickboxers.

[SevenStar]

That's pure *. Tell Tyson that y our teach hits harder than him. LOL. Low stance does not dictate power output. It will limit your mobility though. You aren't meant to fight in a low stance. You use low stances for structure purposes, internal development and endurance in the legs. you don't fight from the low stance...

 

kickboxing is a sport, as is muay thai, as is bjj. But you are extremely deluded if you think they can't be used effectively in a fight. I didn't say a kickboxer would own a karate guy in the ring, but it's not far removed from the truth. Who wins will come down to training methods. And since the kickboxer spends his time trainin live and with hard contact against opponents and trains for the ring (conditioning, etc.) yes, he does have a distinct advantage. Those same pluses also carry over into the street.

[SevenStar]

And you didn't answer my question....what organization was he fighting under?

[I-Self]

Modern kickboxing was mainly a result of 2 main pioneers of karate in America- Bill Wallace and especially Joe Lewis. Both were Okinawan Shorin Ryu Shodans (Ist degree BBs) with minimal time in training on Okinawa, who decided that free-sparring and point competition were not accurate measures of stand-up fighting ability. They adopted some boxing techs (many are already taught in Shorin Ryu) and full contact rules then developed kickboxing. Don Wilson came much later.

 

The interesting thing to note is that both of these guys, although BBs, had at the most intermediate knowledge of their respective styles. As a a result many of the advanced SD principles were unknown to them. For this reason they took an all-encompassing artform and created the perpetual journeyman style. Its kind of like Hip Hop (the culture) and Rap (one of the 4 elements of Hip Hop). Rap is one very limited aspect of Hip Hop, as kickboxing is of real karate, but it is the most prevalent and is even identified as "Hip Hop". It's like calling your arm your whole body, 'nawmean? Hence, the proliferation of a fighting system that gets quick results with no depth attached. Perfect for your average dolt.

 

The styles of Shorin they studied, Shobayashi and Shorinji Ryu, are not even known for their ring ability. Shorinkan and Shidokan (Kobayashi) and Okinawan Kenpo have the best kickboxers out of all the Shorin Ryuha. The thing is that many of its practitioners think kumite is just one very limited aspect of training, and they are right. I guess Bill and Joe missed that when they trained on Okinawa for their 2.5 years combined.

 

Kickboxing is cool, but a true (Okinawan) karate-ka should already be a proficient kickboxer by blue belt (5th kyu or so). I say if you want to concentrate on kickboxing look for a Muay Thai gym.Tthey are the best at that ring art and you shouldn't waste your time learning Tae Bo or American kickboxing.

[SevenStar]

I prefer muay thai also, but they employ similar tactics and train equally hard at serious levels. It's hardly a waste of time.

 

As far as your comment on a 5h kyu bring a proficient, that's true - IF they are training to kickbox. The same goes for any style. If they are training for the format, then they have the potential to do well.

 

As far as depth being attached - that may not matter. It depends on what you are looking for. If you want to become proficient quickly, depth is really not a factor...