alanseijas Posted September 10, 2003 Posted September 10, 2003 As a student of the Japanese language, I agree with this totally. Most pronunciations in dojos are ridiculous, never mind the incorrect usage. I think if you can't say it correctly, stick to English. Wouldn't a Japanese instructor appreciate the effort, though? Better than ignoring the roots of your chosen art, I would think. Maybe. I don't know. I do know that when I can't understand a foreigner's English, I don't like it. I would think that they would feel the same way. ????????????? The patch or crest worn by Isshinryu karateka often raises admiration and curiosity. The patch is based on a day dream Tatsuo Shimabuku had in the fifties while he was creating his karate style. This dream was the missing piece in the puzzle called Isshinryu. The patch is often incorrectly called Mizu Gami, which means 'water goddess'. Originally the Isshinryu emblem was called 'Isshinryu No Megami', which means 'Goddess of Isshinryu'. The goddess is the Goddess of Isshinryu karate and not the goddess of water.
Jussi Häkkinen Posted September 10, 2003 Posted September 10, 2003 Occasionally I am rather happy that Finnish and Japanese way of pronounciation is somewhat identical. I have heard people that are English speakers to pronounce Japanese terms and...well, let's just say that I had a hard time when trying to keep myself from bursting into laughter or tears. Jussi HäkkinenOkinawan Shorin-Ryu Seibukan Karate-Do (Kyan Chotoku lineage)TurkuFinland
superleeds Posted September 14, 2003 Posted September 14, 2003 I've read a few web sites by people who speak Japanese or Okinawan who find the common pronunciation in martial arts classes to be appalling, so I can take it or leave it. Our Sensei's Sensei goes to Okinawa to train every couple of years, so I believe the pronunciation is fairly accurate in our school, though. As a student of the Japanese language, I agree with this totally. Most pronunciations in dojos are ridiculous, never mind the incorrect usage. I think if you can't say it correctly, stick to English. If one was to follow that line of argument, you might as well say that if you dont do the Karate techniques properly, you shouldn't do them at all. That you cant do something properly is not a reason to give it up, is it? Read a book!
zelgadis-3878 Posted September 14, 2003 Posted September 14, 2003 i like to train in the roots of the art myself, thow i have nothing agest those that just want to speak in english i like to feel as close to the root of the art as possable so i can better understand not only the moves of the art but the history as well i walk the path of the warrior not only to yeild to my hunger of battle nor to protact myself are the ones around me. but to honer those that spent there life making a style are defending a nation with said style ^_^
Goju1 Posted September 14, 2003 Posted September 14, 2003 When we have our Japanese/Okinawan instructors visiting at the Dojo, they try in broken english and japanese, with the help of a translator, to get their mesage across That's really the point isn't it? To say if you can't say it right don't say it all is ridiculous IMO. I know these esteemed gentlemen certainly would not agree. They appreciate any effort to learn and carry on what we all love - our art.
alanseijas Posted September 15, 2003 Posted September 15, 2003 I've read a few web sites by people who speak Japanese or Okinawan who find the common pronunciation in martial arts classes to be appalling, so I can take it or leave it. Our Sensei's Sensei goes to Okinawa to train every couple of years, so I believe the pronunciation is fairly accurate in our school, though. As a student of the Japanese language, I agree with this totally. Most pronunciations in dojos are ridiculous, never mind the incorrect usage. I think if you can't say it correctly, stick to English. If one was to follow that line of argument, you might as well say that if you dont do the Karate techniques properly, you shouldn't do them at all. That you cant do something properly is not a reason to give it up, is it? That is true, too. If you're not doing your karate techniques properly, you are in danger of getting hurt. My argument is that while your Sensei will be able to correct your techniques, he cannot correct your Japanese if he doesn't know it himself; and most don't. The patch or crest worn by Isshinryu karateka often raises admiration and curiosity. The patch is based on a day dream Tatsuo Shimabuku had in the fifties while he was creating his karate style. This dream was the missing piece in the puzzle called Isshinryu. The patch is often incorrectly called Mizu Gami, which means 'water goddess'. Originally the Isshinryu emblem was called 'Isshinryu No Megami', which means 'Goddess of Isshinryu'. The goddess is the Goddess of Isshinryu karate and not the goddess of water.
alanseijas Posted September 15, 2003 Posted September 15, 2003 When we have our Japanese/Okinawan instructors visiting at the Dojo, they try in broken english and japanese, with the help of a translator, to get their mesage across That's really the point isn't it? To say if you can't say it right don't say it all is ridiculous IMO. I know these esteemed gentlemen certainly would not agree. They appreciate any effort to learn and carry on what we all love - our art. To me, them speaking in broken English is not as bad as us speaking in broken Japanese. Remember, we are learning THEIR art; and they are just doing their best to teach US. Wouldn't it be right to honor them, and learn how to speak their language properly as well as their techniques? Also, if they're coming to your dojo; I'm assuming it's not in the Riyukan Arcapellego, and they have traveled away from their homeland. That would give them more of a right to speak brokenly, IMO. If you went to their homeland, and spoke incorrectly, I doubt you'd find anyone to teach you at all. Now I'm not saying I'm great because I speak Japanese. I just took the time to learn it properly, because I believe they deserve it. Itte kimasu. Jaa matta. The patch or crest worn by Isshinryu karateka often raises admiration and curiosity. The patch is based on a day dream Tatsuo Shimabuku had in the fifties while he was creating his karate style. This dream was the missing piece in the puzzle called Isshinryu. The patch is often incorrectly called Mizu Gami, which means 'water goddess'. Originally the Isshinryu emblem was called 'Isshinryu No Megami', which means 'Goddess of Isshinryu'. The goddess is the Goddess of Isshinryu karate and not the goddess of water.
Guest Posted September 15, 2003 Posted September 15, 2003 To me, them speaking in broken English is not as bad as us speaking in broken Japanese. Remember, we are learning THEIR art; and they are just doing their best to teach US. That's where you have it wrong. Remeber, you are _paying them_ to teach you the art. And if I'm your customer, then you'd better treat me like one. Why should a karate instructor be exempt from standard business practices of customer service? Is it because he may be a "master?" So that means that if your car breaks down, and you want to bring it to the "best" mechanic, then you would put up with crappy service? Hell no, you'd demand the best service, and you will get it too because your guy is the best.Wouldn't it be right to honor them, and learn how to speak their language properly as well as their techniques? Again, your looking at it from the wrong perspective. It should be the instructor's priveledge to be paid to teach you, not the other way around.Also, if they're coming to your dojo; I'm assuming it's not in the Riyukan Arcapellego, and they have traveled away from their homeland. That would give them more of a right to speak brokenly, IMO. Of course, they shouldn't be given such a hard time about their deficiencies in english because after all it isn't their native language. However, they should at least make an effort to learn the language if they expect you to pay them to teach you karate.
alanseijas Posted September 15, 2003 Posted September 15, 2003 I think, SMR, that you are confused about my original argument. I was replying to Goju1's comments, there. My original statement said that I have a problem with the AMERICAN Senseis teaching Japanese with the wrong usage and pronounciation. I'm sure that if you have a Japanese Sensei, he is speaking Japanese correctly. A karate instructor is not exempt from standard business practices at all, but IMO, don't teach what you do not know. I wouldn't want a mechanic working on my car if he thinks he knows what he's doing, but in reality has it all wrong. The patch or crest worn by Isshinryu karateka often raises admiration and curiosity. The patch is based on a day dream Tatsuo Shimabuku had in the fifties while he was creating his karate style. This dream was the missing piece in the puzzle called Isshinryu. The patch is often incorrectly called Mizu Gami, which means 'water goddess'. Originally the Isshinryu emblem was called 'Isshinryu No Megami', which means 'Goddess of Isshinryu'. The goddess is the Goddess of Isshinryu karate and not the goddess of water.
Guest Posted September 15, 2003 Posted September 15, 2003 Gotcha. You are right about that, if you can't speak the Japanese properly, then don't.
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