CCDI Posted August 29, 2003 Posted August 29, 2003 This is somewhat amusing to me. Just as all of the arts have their correct application in the appropriate setting, the same is true with this grappling vs striking issue. At least 95% of what is taught in the four state police acadamies that I am familiar with as well as the fedral law enforcement agencies is what you would classify as grappling arts-and for good reason as most of the time you are controlling and defusing a situation. However, I not only have been involved with teaching (street officers) but I spent the last ten years of my career with Special Weapons and Tactics Teams. I would not have been doing my job if I did not give them the tools, i.e. elbow smash, backfist, push kick, etc., to break contact, establish distance, draw, and fire two in the chest and one in the head. 10-24, 10-8 CCDI"Win before you engage."
tommarker Posted August 30, 2003 Posted August 30, 2003 Levering someone into place to cuff hem is preferrable to breaking their collar bone then inflicting enough brain-stem trauma to incapacitate them so you cancuff them. Well, of course it is! Different tools for different situations is all I'm trying to suggest. I attempted to make that clear by discussing the use of force continuum, etc. I don't think they shouldn't be using grappling techniques when possible. The original poster expressed shock that police officers would learn striking techniques, and I was attempting to describe a scenerio where they would be helpful. If an armbar brings a guy down, great! If a side snap kick softens up someone who is violently resisting, great! If a palm strike to the chin gets you enough distance to draw and fire, it is doing it's job. I'm not talking about DUI arrests here, I'm talking full blown assaults on an officer. My line of supporting cops doing what they need to do to get home is more to thwart anyone would say that police should only ever be allowed to restrain or control attackers. Not some sort of blanket statement encouraging "Rodney King's" or fascism. Chill. I'm no longer posting here. Adios.
Pacificshore Posted August 31, 2003 Posted August 31, 2003 You know that cops are always held to a higher standard when it comes to the use of force issue. However, when they get into a knockdown dragout fight, it dosen't mean that they should go immediately into grappling mode to control someone. The last place they would want to be if at all possible is the ground. Just think of all the gear they have to wear. Does not make it conducive to grappling. Plus, once they are in a grapple situation, not only do they have to protect themselves, they gotta protect their weapons. I would think that if and when they go to the ground, they would immediately try to establish top/back control on any suspect. Sure sometimes they may end up on the ground, but I wouldn't think that's where they want to stay for long. Just my 2cents. Oh, and one other thing, I don't think that cops give up their rights to throw kicks and punches whenever necessary just because heir cops. Di'DaDeeeee!!!Mind of Mencia
major_motoko Posted September 1, 2003 Posted September 1, 2003 My friend is a Sargeant in the London Met Police. She has trained mainly in grappling and restraining techniques like Jujitsu and Judo. As far as she has told me they are not taught ANY striking techniques (other than the police baton) as it would be seen as overly agressive behaviour. They have CS spray, batons and handcuffs and in some cases stun guns. They are not meant to punch people (although I have seen it happen when an officer looses his/her cool) She does a mean thumb lock! Just thought people might be interested to know motoko 2nd Kyu Brown Belt, Wado Ryu Karate-do"Daniel-san best karate still inside!" Mr Myagi
mikS Posted September 1, 2003 Posted September 1, 2003 Think about it, if a criminal gets the slip on an officer and kamikaze's them out of nowhere with a sucker punch, the officer has to respond quickly to regain control of the situation. It's not always going to be possible to pull out the OC, Baton, or gun. Option 1: The policeman has been grabbed and needs to grapple. Option 2: The policeman is not grabbed and needs to subdue (grapple).Why waste time with an Aikido move that -- likely -- won't work when you a quick palm strike to the chin, axe hand to the collarbone and stomp will put the ASSAILANT (not the poor innocent criminal) on the ground quickly? Because these functionally never result in a subdual. Take a look at more than a minute of more than a dozen police with sticks hitting Rodney King over and over and over... notice that for over a minute he continued to get back up. Wonder what one officer with no stick could have done from a striking perspective to keep him down. Then relize the use of force issue you just mentioned, and remember that grappling arts (which, I might add, have a proven record of success over striking arts; and which are obviouly more useful in wrestling for control) inflict less injury when trying to subde. Levering someone into place to cuff hem is preferrable to breaking their collar bone then inflicting enough brain-stem trauma to incapacitate them so you cancuff them.I'm very much against police abusing their powers, but I'm even more in favor of them going home to their families every night. IIRC this is the "complex question fallacy"; like "anyone who loves Jesus will agree that tacos taste bad". We all want them going home at night; we don't all agree with what best accomplishes that goal. If you say sooo.
wrestlingkaratechamp Posted September 1, 2003 Posted September 1, 2003 Has anyone ever fought a cop? One goes to my dojo. Hes an animal. 6 foot 7 365 pounds.
JerryLove Posted September 2, 2003 Posted September 2, 2003 The last place they would want to be if at all possible is the ground. Just think of all the gear they have to wear. Does not make it conducive to grappling. that oft-repeated "90% of all fights go to the ground" was a statistic by a police department about conflicts involving oficers. This statistic exists specifically beacuse officers are trained to take the fight to the ground. That said, I agree hat there are many situations where going to the ground would be a bad idea. https://www.clearsilat.com
Sorynn Posted September 2, 2003 Posted September 2, 2003 Has anyone ever fought a cop? One goes to my dojo. Hes an animal. 6 foot 7 365 pounds. Wow, that is one big officer. Can he run? I used to spare a cop in the boxing ring. It was the only time I could imagine punching a cop repeatedly and not being in trouble.
delta1 Posted September 3, 2003 Posted September 3, 2003 Has anyone ever fought a cop? I used to spar, and fight with my brother all the time. He's tough. I was also his training dummy when he went through the academy. Also used to work out with a couple of cops and corrections officers. The cops were pretty goood, but the corrections guys were just big! They had a tendency to just smother an attack, take you to the ground and wrap you up, then hold you there 'till the other one came over and hit you with a stick. That's pretty much what they were trained to do with unruly prisoners. Like the guy said, everything to its' own situation, but that isn't my idea of self defense. Freedom isn't free!
delta1 Posted September 3, 2003 Posted September 3, 2003 This is not a mutually exclusive argument. That's a good way to put it. Dang! Wish I'd thought to say that. Freedom isn't free!
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