"90% of fights end up on the ground"?

[ckdstudent]

Actually I take grappling now and then to learn a little so I've got a backup, but I get irritated by the attitude which I'm always hearing that grapplers can *always* take down a striker and will always win a fight.

 

Yes, I have fought in anger, not in a ring but on the street. I've only had two experienced people try to grapple me and they were very short fights.

 

Padded gloves do soften blows though, whether they're meant to or not. If they didn't then you'd still break bones and cause cuts with them on, and in many competitions they have rules against 'excessive contact'.

 

I wonder why I'm arrogant for saying nothing more than that grapplers won't always win, and yet they're just realistic when they say that they will.

 

Incidentally I mean no offense to most of the people on this board who don't claim that grapplers will always win, I've just heard that they will too many times.

 

 

[jakmak52]

Yes, it's nice to know a little about Mr. Royce Gracie's tactics in times of peril

 

Peace

 

http://community.webshots.com/user/jakmak521

[Punchdrunk]

CKD-

 

I understand. I too have read the ridiculous Tank Abbott would easily beat Mike Tyson because Tank's a grappler drivel. The grappling always wins all else is useless position is very pompous. It makes makes wrestlers and BJJ players sound like prostletizing morons.

 

However, in this and the "taking kickers down post" you have swung too far the other side of the striking / grappling balance.

 

 

 

-Claiming you can 'easily' avoid being taken down by 'simply' continuosly throwing strikes that a tough grappler will not be fast enough to capitalize on because your power,stamina, accuracy, and kick rechambering speed are so great the fight will be over in few 'seconds'

 

 

 

- scoffing at the decision by tested masters like Insonato, Norris, Wallace, and Uriquidez' decision to solidify they're game by adding BJJ & grappling work

 

-ignoring knockouts,ringdeath, and the physics of concusive force to support the idea that strikers power is significantly diminished by gloves in MMA competition hence their susceptiblity to takedowns

 

Well, I truly don't think you mean for it too but it does coming off just as arrogant as the groundfighting mongers who irritate you so much.

 

Look at Pride, UFC, King of the Cage. You have to be able to do both or you are conceding too much to you opponent.

 

_________________

 

One cannot choose to be passive without the option to be aggressive.

 

[ This Message was edited by: Punchdrunk on 2002-06-22 09:12 ]

[ckdstudent]

-Claiming you can 'easily' avoid being taken down by 'simply' continuosly throwing strikes that a tough grappler will not be fast enough to capitalize on because your power,stamina, accuracy, and kick rechambering speed are so great the fight will be over in few 'seconds'

 

Actually that comment:

Actually you can stop people from taking you down, its quite easy to do. You get out of their way and keep throwing techniques whenever they try to move in. That prevents them from taking you down quite effectively.

was more a response to lister14's:

if you cannot fight on the ground, you are as good as lost!! you cannot prevent anybody to take you down... and whoever is best on the ground wins!

than anything else. Besides, I never said it was simple to throw techniques, or that they'd all hit, and who said I was talking about only throwing kicks? I know the debate is about kickers, but most of them actually have arms as well as legs. Power and stamina have nothing to do with whether or not the grappler can capitalise on the techniques, that's purely down to speed and accuracy. You try catching a kic that's just hammered into your knee.

- scoffing at the decision by tested masters like Insonato, Norris, Wallace, and Uriquidez' decision to solidify they're game by adding BJJ & grappling work

 

I quote my first post in this thread:

In the case of most fights, if both of you hit the ground the fight's gone on too long. The majority of encounters are over in the first three seconds. This isn't to say that groundfighting is unnecessary, far from it, you should learn everything you can to defend yourself.

I hate to say it, but I don't quite sound to myself like I'm scoffing at the decisions of your masters when they decide to solidify their training, or perhaps you didn't read this.

-ignoring knockouts,ringdeath, and the physics of concusive force to support the idea that strikers power is significantly diminished by gloves in MMA competition hence their susceptiblity to takedowns

I have to say that I don't compete or really watch competitions so on that particular thing I can't really comment. I do know that in sparring we wear padded gloves, and have never had serious injuries or knockouts, whereas without the gloves with the same techniques its been a whole other story. Padded gloves absorb impact as the padding compresses, they also help to spread the impact more evenly over a larger area. Maybe we're talking about different types of gloves, our padding might be softer than yours.

Well, I truly don't think you mean for it too but it does coming off just as arrogant as the groundfighting mongers who irritate you so much.

At least I admit that grappling has a use, and is useful to learn.

Look at Pride, UFC, King of the Cage. You have to be able to do both or you are conceding too much to you opponent.

Like I said I don't watch competition so I can't comment. I've seen my fair share of fights though, and participated in a few more than I'd like.

 

 

[Punchdrunk]

Try checking the competitions out. I think you'll have a better sense of what the grappling fuss is about.

[ckdstudent]

Personally I'm quite happy to stick with what I know works (at least for me) on the street. I've never really gained much enjoyment from watching fights, and putting myself in the way of danger is not one of my favourite pastimes.

 

 

[--]

In my experience, gloves don't diminish power very much. What they DO reduce is the sharp edge. When all the power is focused into your knuckles or first digits, it will tear through your opponent, causing great physical damage. With gloves, the force spreads out over an area, which will have two advantages in spectator events:

 

1) physically knock the opponent back harder, making the strike look more impressive, without causing long-term damage. This is important for, say, a boxer, who needs to be in the ring, not the ER.

 

2) cause the impact to jar the senses a bit more, leading to crisp, clean knockouts such as in professional boxing, as opposed to the bloody KOs of streetfights. This makes for safer, but still competetive, tournaments.

 

Gloves still hurt, they just reduce physical injury. If you prefer to go at it the traditional way, keep in mind how 87% of Imperial prizefighters of the Han dynasty left these tournaments: blinded, crippled for life, or dead.

 

I used to dislike grappling, too, because from what I had heard, all grapplers seemed to be arrogant and narrow-minded. But I met Royler Gracie last year, and he is a very nice, intelligent, and open-minded man. BJJ is focued on the submission alone, just as Western boxing is focused on the punch alone. Therefore, these areas of their combat training become extremely developed.

 

For strikers who want to learn a grappling art, nothing, in my opinion, beats Shuai Chiao. You take them down hard, beat them down with close-range elbows, knees, punches, gouges, whatever, and don't really have to sprawl, just go down on your knees and hands. It's called Chinese Fast Wrestling, with quick, brutal matches that are effective and practical for the street. I find it to be an excellent grappling style for those who prefer fists and feet to rolling around on a mat with another guy on top of you.

 

 

[Punchdrunk]

-: sounds like a vale tudo approach. How do you spar for that? Lots of padding, semi contact, just drills, all of the above?

 

I'm interested in the training progression.

[--]

Nah, we really go at it, no pads or anything, just a groin protector. We slam each other down, start throwing punches and kicks, and usually end it in a submission or break up, if one of us is about to be badly injured or KOed. Before joining, our sifu checks a student's medical records, has an interview with him/her to learn the motives and goals for joining, and then puts them through a week of classes to see if they're up to it. It would seem to be like Vale Tudo, but we don't hesitate to knock the crap out of our opponents. Just beat them senseless, then, while they're stunned, go for joint locks or breaks.

 

I can only recall three classes, out of the fifty or so I have attended thus far, from which I didn't walk away bruised, injured, or bleeding. It's very rough, and not for everybody, but if you like striking, and want to round off your style with grappling, Shuai Chiao rulez. What seperates it from so many other grappling arts is that we don't hesitate to cause fast, hard damage. We won't try to restrain an opponent; we'll simply beat them down and break as many bones as possible while they're out cold.

 

Savage little freaks, aren't we?

 

 

[ckdstudent]

And its a good thing to walk away from a class bleeding and bruised? Personally I'm quite happy to save injuries for the people who try to attack me, not my training partners who are, after all, on my side.