Kata: What does it mean to your style?

[Sasori_Te]

As I said before Andrew Green, I stopped doing kata for over 2 years. As I also said before, you don't have karate without kata. You can have a fighting style or a self defense system, but without kata karate doesn't exist. It all depends on what you want from your martial arts experience. Some folks want just the topical or physical side and this is okay. Martial arts can be many things to many people, but I stand firm that it's not karate without kata.

[Goju1]

There is the problem in itself you know 40 kata. That is a symptom of the modern karate art not the fighting style. Traditionally a karateka would know about 3 kata and 5 was conssidered a lot

 

Maybe you're onto something? All these years and I only know 5 Our kata are taught sparingly and strictly, just like the "old days", when students learned Sanchin first, then were assigned a single kata that their sensei chose for them and that was it for the rest of their lives. That sure wouldn't work nowadays would it?

[Beer-monster]

I agree satori, kata makes karate. It has the focus and spiritual elements wanted in an art, yet without the principles in kata karate is next to useless as a realistic fighting system.

 

Goju1, would it work. That depends. It would probably bore the modern minded student to tears, but if you had the dedication to put up with it you would be a good martial artist both in the mental and pracycal aspects. However with todays assocaitions what would there be to teach without a a kata at each belt to form the basis of the syllabus.

 

I've recently started to read a book by a 6th shotokan name Bill Burgar called "5 years, one kata" which is exactly what it says on the tin. He spent 5 years analysing the hell out of the Gojushiho kata, his entire training regime was based on this kata. He looked at every movement in different ways until he had an effective applicayion for them (if the movement did not hold up in sparring or seemed illogical eg gedan barai as a block he would discard it). He varied the ways of performing the kata until he was shadow boxing the moves instead of following the precise pattern and stances, most improtantly he visualised the enemy in every detail (quite a skill that needs development) until he was doing more than 'punching air'. He even used modern theories such as probabilty distributions to co-ordinate his training. eg most people are responsive to vital point but there are some who a really responsive and some people don't feel a thing. He moved his training to focus on vital point so that he could use them accurately, but not become dependent on thgem incase he was ever against one of those robot people.

 

Recently I've begun looking at the Naihanchi/tekki series more closely (its the only kata that can be performed in my tiny uni dorm ) based on the idea that the strategies of Naihanchi are developed for close quater combat. Perhaps we all would benefit from ignoring the many kata and looking deeply into our favourite one (spicing it up slightly so that we dont numb our brains) and learning what it can teach us. If so I hope someone who do Seienshin, that one confuses me

[Sasori_Te]

Excellent Beer Monster. This is what karate is to me. What I believe it was meant to be. Instead of being merely taught a series of techniques to be memorized not unlike programming a computer, by studying one kata you are forcing yourself to THINK! Thinking for ourselves seems to have become overrated in our society. Studying one kata allows us to wrap our minds around the techniques and the myriad possible variations. This is how you continue growing in karate. So we need to dust off the old brains and get to work.

[Beer-monster]

Kata is programming in that its a mneumonic device

 

and but its not exactly the same. Zenkutsu dachi teaches you to push your weight forwards behind an attack. Your not expected to drop into the stance as its shown in the kata (anyone with 1/2 a braincell can tell that, the kata knows this being made for fighters) but it emphasises the action of pushing with a bent front leg and straghter back leg to put more momentum in the attack. You may not use the exact stance but the kata had programmed the art of using your body's weight to your adavntage instinctually.

 

Now that the movements are instinctive, you must understand its uses, thus the thought. Too many people look at the obvious and the hand not the movement. The movement may use a fist, but that doesn't man its a punch. The essential movement it thrust out you arm quickly, a movement that it also used in grabbing and pushing. Since no-one I know would use a punch like that, it must be one of these alternate motions (or a punch and a grab implied in one movement). The first step punch in Pinan Sandan is better explained as grabbing someone beneath the arm around the waist for an o-goshi hip throw, a fundamental and easily applied attack.

[Goju1]

Am I correct in assuming that when other styles learn a kata, they also learn the applications (bunkai)? I am beginning to wonder if this is so? It really helps not only in performance of the kata, but in their inherent self defense relationship.

 

And do you have to demonstrate the bunkai for grading?

[Beer-monster]

Some styles do, or rather some teachers. Unfortunately not mine (well not often) . Also most people come up with some rather illogical bunkai based on what the obvious is.

 

For example the first moves of Pinan Sandan (heian nidan)

 

Your supposed to block with one hand while the other is in a box like guards. Bring the guard hand down to break the arm at the elbow then step up and puch the guy.

 

That strikes me as stupid for many reasons firstly in the first moves such a guard is useless and redundant. Second the move wont break the eblow unless they have arms made of twigs or your superman. Third themselves are too far away the punch would never strike.

 

Another bunkai I've heard is that once again you block with the front and box guard with the rear, however then the rear hand strikes the collar bone before once again punching.

 

This time your too close if you can hit the collar bonje with such a strike then you are too close for a punch.

 

When I read Iain Abernethy's books he pointed out that the movements are very similar to the set up for a shoulder lock with the punch as a fail safe if the lock fails. I've learnt this lock in jiu-jitsu and have seen it in many Chin na books, it is effective and brutal (can easily dislocate the shoulder with little strength required). This application considers the distance of the attack, use of hikite and the back hand and every other element of the movements. It also makes more sense and can be varied using the principles. The lock can even be applied on the ground (I believe it is called ude garame).

 

Um to cut along story short, your lucky if they explain bunkai but dont take it at face value. Use common sense and test if it works, don't just take your sensei words for it (I mean that with every respect) it only takes one guy to get it wrong and teach it, to make a whole group of people wrong. We should all remember black belts and dan do not make us infallible.

 

PS- Did anyone get explained the moves after the first front kick (when you go in x-stance and kiai) as a backfist to the face?

[Hohan-1]

How can you decipher the bunkai of a form (oyo or kihon) when you are doing the form incorrectly? In karate the most important thing is form, or structural ki. If you do those long, wide, unnatural stances (supposedly for tendon and muscle training) then you can never really know the intent of the originator of the form. Short guys don't need to get no lower. They are not necessarily big muscle dudes so structure and positioning is the key/ki. They also need quick transition and balance so know that all you Shotokan types practice the Funakoshi method- the schoolboy method for fun and physical fitness, not for real fighting. Now that you know this then you can try and figure out how the original Shorin or Shorei kata use to look. Pick up Funakoshi's seminal (first) publication, "KarateJutsu". Look at the stances before he "adapted" them for the Japanese school system. Forget "Karate-Do Kyohan". That is rubbish karate. Funakoshi admitted as much, although other Shotokan practitioners insist that it is an "evolution". There is "devolution" too, you know.

 

Ask any Shotokan practitoner who has experienced real Okinawan karate what the difference is. You still won't be able to "feel" them, but maybe you'll accept reality coming from one of your Japanese Karate brethren. No sweat. How many folks live in the real reality anyway? From religion to politics everything is based on emotion and brain washing. You will never use that "Karate-Do" to save your * so what does it matter? What some folks know could literally kill you, I mean your concept of what you think you know. Figuratively.

 

So what does kata mean? Kata is the Ryuha. That is it. I can tell a Shotokan or other Japanese Karate-ka in one sec.. It's like mid-level sport karate forever and ever. More tense than you're feeling as you read these truths;)! Goodbye and understand that this all opinion. No need for tears of sadness or anger. Research stuff on your own. I am trying to help you.

 

Really !

[Beer-monster]

um..does that mean you think its useless or useful?

[Hohan-1]

My Orthodox kata is everything. That diluted stuff is almost worthless for passing on real techs and fighting principles.

 

So, uhh, Beer Monster (btw beer/liquor sucks and is killing those precious neurons that help you to understand life and karate) what some know is more useful than what others think they know.

 

Yeah alcohol and the western warrior culture go hand-in-hand. That's why the world isn't F'ed up....