Kata: What does it mean to your style?

[Bl4cKtH0rN]

The kata is to teach aspects of how to struggle and philosophical aspects haul of leaving more agile, strong, almentar reflexes, to develop the ki...

 

 

 

Kata is All

[AndrewGreen]

15 years and you've found no viable fighting uses?

 

You must have done somthing wrong.

 

perhaps you didn't read my post. I can show you all sorts of "fighting" applications, so what? The training method is faulty no matter what applications you "know".

 

The movements are stylised and the postures need modification. (ex hand on hip, shoulders down, chin up)

 

"I am just beginning my journey in martial arts, but I've already come to the realization that some only care about the "fighting" aspect of martial arts. "

 

Sure, some do, but what does this have to do with kata?

 

It is entirely possible to think kata are basically a cultural dance and not care about fighting.

[Beer-monster]

Sorry I should have paid more attention.

 

However the about the posturem they are like that for a reason. They don't expect you do perform the technique as shown, the stances and positioning are clues that tel you what is needed to make the technques work eg Hand on hip is a hikte movement similar to lop sau in Wing chun, you pull a captured arm (or something else) to yank the opponent of balance and into your fist. Moves performed in zenkutsu dachi tell you that you put your weight forwards behind the movement, not that you should stomp into fron stance.

 

I mean no disrespect and am not trying to be condescending ior anything, but I find it hard to believe that someone can study the kata well and not see them as important to combat. I have been looking deeper in to my kata for about 2 years now since I first read Iain Abernethy's work (I recommend them to anyone who doubts the use of kata). In that time I have had the misfortune to be in three fights in pubs and on the street (wrong place wrong time things), and in all three have used techniques that can be found in the kata to defend myself and so am sure that anyone can find them useful.

 

I have found the best idea is to forget that Karate is a striking art (my jiu-jitsu training helps) and try not to see a punch as a punch a block as a block or a kick as a kick.

 

Just to clarify I'm not preaching just saying what kata means to me.

 

As for people who say kata is not about fighting as much as culture, focus d a good and ki. I see those as benifits and bonuses and a good reason to practise kata but not the ture purpose. Kind of like a car that has air conditioning and looks good, but the real purpose of a car is to get from A to B and kata is to learn combat.

 

Um..sorry to waffle I'll get off my soap box now.s

[AndrewGreen]

Sorry I should have paid more attention.

 

However the about the posturem they are like that for a reason. They don't expect you do perform the technique as shown,

 

It would be far more beneficial to practice movements the way you would use them. Imagine learning baseball and spending most of your time working your swing in a way you wouldn't use it, a way which gives you "clues". It wouldn't help much and would teach you bad habits.

Hand on hip is a hikte movement similar to lop sau in Wing chun, you pull a captured arm (or something else) to yank the opponent of balance and into your fist.

 

If it was done with the hands high and only once and a while I might believe that. But every single punch!?! That is just silly. Learn to punch and retract to a guard position, once you can do that you can add lop sau's if you want.

Moves performed in zenkutsu dachi tell you that you put your weight forwards behind the movement, not that you should stomp into fron stance.

 

Again, not needed, you can teach that without and not build bad habits by doing it this way. This is stylization, making it look good.

I mean no disrespect and am not trying to be condescending ior anything, but I find it hard to believe that someone can study the kata well and not see them as important to combat.

 

And I find it hard to believe that anyone that knows how to fight in all ranges with limited/no rules can find kata useful for that purpose.

I have been looking deeper in to my kata for about 2 years now since I first read Iain Abernethy's work (I recommend them to anyone who doubts the use of kata). In that time I have had the misfortune to be in three fights in pubs and on the street (wrong place wrong time things), and in all three have used techniques that can be found in the kata to defend myself and so am sure that anyone can find them useful.

 

Now I will never say they cannot be used, but I will say that there are far better and more effective training methods. To the point where kata is not helpful, and can in fact be counterproductive.

 

I believe that anything that can be gained from kata, except when you treat it as a cultural dance, can be better gained through other training methods.

 

If you want to understand physics Aristotle is better then nothing, but you'd be better off studying more modern works. Studying Aristotle as anything except historical study would be counterproductive. Same as kata.

[Beer-monster]

There are better ways, but iut doesn't mean that this one is useless. kata is an aid to memory something to teach a person how to do karate without needing an army of training partners.

 

Also why have things exactly as you use them and have every casual watcher know the secrets of karate. Martial arts were once a very secret thing. To use you analogy, if you had a better way of hitting a baseball than other people, would you want the opposing teams to see how it works? Besides you can't really compare baseball and karate.

 

Also time would have effects on the way the movements are performed, making them more solid and unassuming with every person taught.

 

The thing is kata is made by fighters for fighters, it assumes that the practitioner would have the common sense not to do exactly as it shows.

 

If the fist is not immediately retracted perhaps it aint a punch but a grab. Perhaps gendan barai aint a block.

 

Kata isn't outdated or ineffective the rest of the karate training is. We call it tarditional karate but its actually much more modern, teaching an art not fighting do not jitsu (not that ther is anything wrong with this). Modern karate has caused many to forget that karate contains jojnt locks and throws.

 

You are right kata is not an effective method ON ITS OWN. To quote osuka again

 

"Martial art progress from kata to kumite to combat"

 

Kata is like a text book, it gives you the most effective techniques and hidden with those the strategy of that style (each kata is a whole system of combat, an individual style). Then you must moves to sparring which is like an exam, to show you the limits of that technqiues, to show you how to make it work and how to recover when it doesn't.

 

Repeat regularly and you will be an effective fighter (against you run of the mill drunken fighter, I wouldn't go into the UFC just yet).

 

Think on this: There are NO BLOCKS in kata!!!!

[DLopez]

"I am just beginning my journey in martial arts, but I've already come to the realization that some only care about the "fighting" aspect of martial arts. "

 

Sure, some do, but what does this have to do with kata?

 

It is entirely possible to think kata are basically a cultural dance and not care about fighting.

 

I understand that you feel that way.

 

But like I said, I will defer to my Grand Master's opinion on whether they are useless or not. I am no where near qualified to disagree with him.

 

As for no black belts in "kata", I cannot earn my black belt unless I know a Hyung for each belt rank in Kuk Sool Won, so I respectfully disagree with that statement.

[Tote]

15 years and you've found no viable fighting uses?

 

You must have done somthing wrong.

 

Your brainwashed my friend. Kata are usless. They are dances for tough people in white pajamas. Get real what have you learned from a kata? Some dances take tons of work to master dosent mean they have any meaning outside dancing.

[Goju1]

15 years and you've found no viable fighting uses?

 

You must have done somthing wrong.

 

Your brainwashed my friend. Kata are usless. They are dances for tough people in white pajamas. Get real what have you learned from a kata? Some dances take tons of work to master dosent mean they have any meaning outside dancing.

 

Lets see - what have I learned?

 

grace,

 

balance,

 

speed,

 

power,

 

patience,

 

vital points,

 

endurance,

 

how to withstand pain,

 

the meaning of 'mo ichi do'

 

thousands of fighting techniques,

 

inner peace,

 

courage,

 

strength,

 

wisdom,...

 

so much more.....

 

One of my favorite training memories - a group of black belts on a beach by the Pacific Ocean at 2am in the morning, doing the first kata/i]

 

over and over and over, never exactly right, but one of the most powerful moments of my life...

 

And yes, I firmly believe that fighting skills are inherent in the kata, it probably just comes down to which style one takes and how much energy and time are put into it.

 

IMHO, Bruce

[Beer-monster]

Dances are what they've become not what they are.

 

What have I learned.

 

Vital point strikes.

 

Muchimi

 

Hikite (lop sau)

 

Throws (o-goshi, ko-soto gari/gaki and more)

 

Joint locks

 

The fundamental principle of combat

 

How to defend myself

 

One hit mentality

 

Moves that can be varified for the ground (need to test that though, need a ground partner)

 

Defences and escapes from grabs

 

Defences from common attacks

 

The strategy of a complete fighting method of a single kata.

 

Thats not mentioning the spiritual side and thats just from Naihanchi/Tekki kata. If kata are a dance why have they existed for hundreds of years including when karate was mostly secretive so there was no need to look tough? Why does it exist in some form in thousands of martial arts styles the world over.

 

Kata is only useless to the modern student who think karate is about stamping and punching air, they have become misunderstood dances, but thats not what they are. The true brainwashed are those that look for a quick fix and see only skin deep at the kata and don't really think about it.

[Sasori_Te]

Your brainwashed my friend. Kata are usless. They are dances for tough people in white pajamas. Get real what have you learned from a kata? Some dances take tons of work to master dosent mean they have any meaning outside dancing.

 

It doesn't seem to me that Beer Monster is the one who is brainwashed Tote, since he came to these conclusions on his own. It seems to me that maybe you are the brainwashed one here. Perhaps some fan of UFC sportfighting or maybe K-1. Wake-up call junior. It's not real! A real fight has no rules. Kata was meant to be broken down and analyzed by practitioners with some amount of skill and knowledge. If you've not gotten anything out of them thus far maybe you're lacking in one of the above mentioned areas. I'm an endorser of pressure point methods and joint locks and breaking. If you'd bother to look a little closer, kata is full of these techniques. The stances aren't unrealistic in kata because all karate stances are meant to be transitory. Constant movement until the opponent is immobile. Maybe you should look a little deeper.