Vale Tudo and BJJ

[Tibby]

matt- I think your you left you caps lock on. Lighten up, bro. If your so great, why are you getting so defence when some is talking about it? What are you trying to prove? You can talk tougher then me online? We have a name for that in TJJ, it's called kuchi waza. Matt, this is the internet, you are getting upset at a block of text. Nothing has ever been settled by typing in all caps and using words you know are going to be edited out anyways. My location is to your left, if you feel that strongly.

 

Johnny- I'd be hard pressed to find a single NHB fighter who is pure anything.

[TJS]

Johnny- I'd be hard pressed to find a single NHB fighter who is pure anything

 

Today your right but go back a few years and it wasant that way. You can still find alot of "pure" stlyes in grappling though most of the top ones cross train even there.

 

but to play the devils advocate Johnny could have said name one champion who has cross trained in TJJ, there may not be any more pure BJJ champs but almost everyone out there has cross trained in it to some extent and it has influenced most other grappling stlyes aswell.

[JohnnyS]

Tibby,

 

Don’t you think it strange that not one champion or fighter of note has come from TJJ? We’ve had BJJ fighters, Sambo fighters, and wrestlers as champions of the UFC’s, yet no TJJ.

 

This surprises me considering that BJJ is just a subset of TJJ. Also, since TJJ has striking and all the groundwork of BJJ (since BJJ is a subset of TJJ as you said), why would they need any cross-training?

[goshinman]

Here we go again. Why can't this topic stay dead? I don't know why the athur of this topic felt the need to say what he said and I really don't see the point of going through all of this again but if we must...

 

While I wouldn't say BJJ is a "spin off" art I do acknowledge it as a variation of jujutsu. Jujitsu is jujitsu rather it's japanese or brazilian. The way you do jujutsu may be different/better then the way someone else does jujitsu, but it is still jujitsu. Tibby I don't think anyone is foolish enough to deny that the foundation of BJJ ground work has it's roots in TJJ. Whoever does is ignorant of the history of their own art because even novice BJJ people know that BJJ came from the Kodokan which came from TJJ. I also don't think it matters very much anymore. I think the problem comes when you try to say that it hasn't evolved separately from TJJ, which it clearly has.

 

When you take the average TJJ Jujitsuka and put them up against a BJJ student with the same amount of training the BJJ student will win 9 of 10 times in a pure grappling match. It's purely because of the way they train that separates them from your run of the mill TJJ student. They go full out all the time from day one whereas most TJJ students don't experience full randori until much later on in training and sometimes they don't EVER do it! I have trained TJJ for 6 years and have only come to my level of skill because I had the stones to go out and hone my skills againt fully resisting opponents of all backgrounds. If you do a technique to technique comparision sure they have the same techniques. Armbars, triangle chokes, sweeps, naked chokes, guillotines, blah blah blah. In fact you would be hard pressed to find ANY BJJ technique that is not in TJJ ground work. But the difference is in the conditioning, the timing, and more importantly, the set up's. They know how to set up the moves much more efficiently because they do it full speed all the time and it is only through full randori can you learn to apply the submissions against a live person.

 

Now a TJJ person who attends a school that does do hardcore randori and Ne waza all the time will be much better prepared for a grappling match with a BJJ person of equal training experience and the outcome would be much more interesting. And even then you still have to factor in the level of competition each man has faced day in day day out. So even if a TJJ guy does do randori and ne waza hardcore he STILL is at a disadvantage against a BJJ guy because these people are grappling tournament machines! And all they do is ground work as opposed to a TJJ guy who has to divide his time between ground work, clinch work, throws, weapons, and striking. In a streetfight however a TJJ person would hold the advantage because of the all-ranges training, the dirty fighting tactics that most TJJ styles teach, and the weapons training. There are just too many factors to consider.

Edited October 6, 2003 by goshinman

[goshinman]

hey tibby SHUT THE * UP, IM A BLUE BELT IN BJJ and a good muay thai and i've beat the * out of not only tjj guys , but also kajukenbo, karate, kung fu ,

 

HOW DARE U CALL BJJ A SPIN OFF ART, ILL * KICK UR * IF I SAW U U *

 

You have got to be kidding me. I'll take you up on that. I haven't played with a BJJ blue belt in a while. It's easy to mouth off in front of a computer monitor about who's a** you have kicked blah blah blah. From the safety of my computer I can say I kicked Rickson Gracie's * in a private lesson at my house once and nobody could prove if I did or didn't because no one was there to see it you numb skull.

[goshinman]

And for what it's worth I think that matt( jiujitsu fighter) should be banned from this forum. Threatening to kick someone's a** for expressing their opinion on a subject is unacceptable behavior. And people wonder why most martial artists don't respect BJJ and MMA/NHB types. It's because of morons like that.

[matt jiujitsufighter]

* you *, i would love to fight u fags

[JohnnyS]

The thing that annoys me with comments like 'BJJ is a subset of TJJ' is that it misrepresents BJJ because BJJ is its own art. BJJ has taken from Judo, wrestling, sambo etc and created its own art with its own strategies and tactics for both fighting and grappling. Although an armbar is still an armbar, the set-ups, strategies, tactics and the reasons behind doing things in certain ways are different from TJJ.

 

It's as if the people from TJJ are trying to ride the coat-tails of BJJ's success and add to it with their own superiority by saying "We've got everything in BJJ plus more". If this were really the case, then we'd see more (or indeed any) successful TJJ competitors at ADCC or in MMA surely?

[Tibby]

If this were really the case, then we'd see more (or indeed any) successful TJJ competitors at ADCC or in MMA surely?

 

This is the same theory they use to prove Bigfoot isl alive.

 

BJJ is a spin-off. Anyone who told you different is full of it. The Gracie's took Jiu-Jitsu to make BJJ. Sambo, Judo, and wrestling? First of all, Judo is a spin-off of Jujitsu. As for Sambo and Wrestling, where did you hear this? I googled and couldn't find anything talking about BJJ coming from anything but TJJ. BJJ is a part of TJJ.

[JohnnyS]

BJJ has added leglocks from Sambo, and takedowns from wrestling. Look at any good BJJ team and they train wrestling takedowns i.e. BTT and Barra Gracie training with Darrel Gholar.

 

The Machado brothers also integrate a lot of wrestling into their BJJ - especially Rigan.

 

If BJJ is just a spin-off from TJJ, then where are the TJJ fighters? Why can't TJJ mirror BJJ's success?