MMA vs. Reality

[JohnnyS]

Treebranch,

 

As far as I recall they did not stop the match at all for the fence - I think you might have your fights mixed up.

 

Secondly, as has already been said, what more could Kimo have done in a streetfight that he didn't do in that fight?

 

Thirdly, clothing makes a huge difference in a fight. If Kimo was wearing streetclothes he would have been much easier to sweep, control and finish.

[JohnnyS]

Kempocos,

 

What you're saying is possible but not likely for the very reason that MMA is so successful - hard sparring. You can't fake being a good boxer, kickboxer, wrestler or submissions guy. As soon as you step in the ring or on the mat you have to be able to prove what you're doing or be considered a fraud.

 

If one were to start a karate or other TMA class however, what you're suggesting would be much more easily done.

[JerryLove]

Name me ONE thing, just one, that is effective and cannot be trained using MMA methods?

Shooting, biting, stabbing, fish-hooking, ear-boxing, hitting over the head with a rock, fighting on very hard surfaces (such as asphault) without protective gear. Oh, that's more than one.

 

I suppose any of these *could* be done in Randori, but your injury rate will be high.

All it is is a approach. Test everything, do whatever you can make work.

 

What about the things you cannot test? I understand that the fastest way to take an opponent down when shooting him is to hit the cerebral cortex or the upper nervous system. I understand why, and have reasearched it; but I have not tried shooting people to find out.

 

Don't like that because there is a weapon? OK, how about boxing ears? I've got one medical statistic after another telling me how damaging it is; but I can't practice it for effect in MMA because it's damaging.

 

For that matter; do you know which of your grapples will cause debilitating breaks and which will cause disloactions that may reset during the fight? Why not? Haven't you delebreately done the breaks?

 

Don't get me wrong; I'm a huge fan of testing what you do and trying to find out what works. I also see the benifit of being able to experience what you train on the mat, over and over, with resisting opponents... I do not think this is the only valid way; I do not think this way needs to be exclusive to other ways.

What didn't he do that you think he would have done in a "street fight" and what is the relevance?

 

If Treebranch's comment that Kimo broke the fence with Gracie; what would have been different is the material of teh surroundings. Getting your head slammed into chain-link or boxing-ring canvas can be disorienting... getting it slammed into a concrete wall or tile floor will kill you.

 

That said, I'm only passingly familir with the fight, and therefore commenting from the posts here rather than having watched that particular match.

[JerryLove]

FYI, here are the things not allowed in a UFC. Are they disallowing them because they *don't* effect the outcome?

 

Butting with the head.

 

Eye gouging of any kind.

 

Biting.

 

Hair pulling.

 

Fish hooking.

 

Groin attacks of any kind.

 

Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent.

 

Small joint manipulation.

 

Striking to the spine or the back of the head.

 

Striking downward using the point of the elbow.

 

Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea.

 

Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh.

 

Grabbing the clavicle.

 

Kicking the head of a grounded opponent.

 

Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.

 

Stomping a grounded opponent.

 

Kicking to the kidney with the heel.

 

Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck.

 

Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area.

 

Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent.

 

Spitting at an opponent.

 

Engaging in an unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to an opponent.

 

Holding the ropes or the fence.

 

Using abusive language in the ring or fenced area.

 

OK, admittedly "spitting" and "abusive language" rules are obviously not to do with the resulting damage. Of course, no "street shoes" are allowed, and no weapons (including iprovised weapons like pens and belts) are allowed. There are not multiple-attackers, and no intervening objects, and the surface is clear, and surrounded by a border which is soft enough to un full-speed into withou injury, and a floor which has yet to cause a single concussion (IIRC).

 

What might be different on "the street" I wonder?

[JohnnyS]

Jerry,

 

All of those rules except for the "No Biting" and "No eye-gouging" rules were added in later UFC's to make the sport more palatable for the Nevada Boxing Commission (well after the Kimo vs Royce match). In fact you could still bite and eye-gouge in the first UFC's but you would get a $1000 fine if you committed one of those acts.

 

Oh, and in the last UFC Matt Lindland knocked himself unconscious when he slipped while attempting to suplex his opponent.

[AndrewGreen]

Name me ONE thing, just one, that is effective and cannot be trained using MMA methods?

Shooting, biting, stabbing, fish-hooking, ear-boxing, hitting over the head with a rock, fighting on very hard surfaces (such as asphault) without protective gear. Oh, that's more than one.

 

All can be done safely in sparring with appropriate gear.

 

Shooting - Paintball

 

biting - don't bite hard, some groups DO train this in sparring

 

Stabbing - Don't use live blades.

 

Fish hooking - Don't rip it to hard

 

etc.

 

Use apropriate safety gear.

I suppose any of these *could* be done in Randori, but your injury rate will be high.

 

Use apropriate safety gear.

All it is is a approach. Test everything, do whatever you can make work.

 

What about the things you cannot test? I understand that the fastest way to take an opponent down when shooting him is to hit the cerebral cortex or the upper nervous system. I understand why, and have reasearched it; but I have not tried shooting people to find out.

 

 

So shoot targets, play with paint balls and laser guns. Do that and you'll get the skill. Just doing the research won't give you anything.

 

Don't like that because there is a weapon? OK, how about boxing ears? I've got one medical statistic after another telling me how damaging it is; but I can't practice it for effect in MMA because it's damaging.

 

I train with weapons all the time. Use protective equipment when necessary.

 

For that matter; do you know which of your grapples will cause debilitating breaks and which will cause disloactions that may reset during the fight? Why not? Haven't you delebreately done the breaks?

 

Pretty good idea. It's not hard to figure out. But should it fail be prepared to follow up as necessary.

 

Don't get me wrong; I'm a huge fan of testing what you do and trying to find out what works. I also see the benifit of being able to experience what you train on the mat, over and over, with resisting opponents... I do not think this is the only valid way; I do not think this way needs to be exclusive to other ways.

 

It's not just testing to see if it works, it;s learning to do it against resistance. You know that getting cracked across the head with a stick, so do the dog brothers. Who do you think is more likely to get cracked across the head?

 

The guy that spends the most time cracking people across the head with a stick. yes they wear masks, take them off and they will hurt you more, but it will be them doing the hurting. Not the guy that studies anatomy and practices hitting against someone who is dummying for them.

What didn't he do that you think he would have done in a "street fight" and what is the relevance?

 

If Treebranch's comment that Kimo broke the fence with Gracie; what would have been different is the material of teh surroundings. Getting your head slammed into chain-link or boxing-ring canvas can be disorienting... getting it slammed into a concrete wall or tile floor will kill you.

 

That said, I'm only passingly familir with the fight, and therefore commenting from the posts here rather than having watched that particular match.

 

The gate opened, I believe it was Kimo up against it.

 

Royce won, Kimo lost. All the "what ifs" in the world won't change the fact that Royce beat Kimo in a no rules fight.

[Warp Spider]

No offense, but a paintball gun firing a .68 caliber projectile at 300fps is very different from a handgun firing a 9mm or .45 caliber projectile at 1500 fps. Paintball guns are also handled very differently than a real gun. Simuntions are a more appropriate way of practicing with real firearms, but are definately more expensive and likely more dangerous. Neither fully simulates the variety of injuries that you can sustain from being shot, though if you are shot repeatedly it hardly matters.

[Tibby]

No offense, but a paintball gun firing a .68 caliber projectile at 300fps is very different from a handgun firing a 9mm or .45 caliber projectile at 1500 fps. Paintball guns are also handled very differently than a real gun. Simuntions are a more appropriate way of practicing with real firearms, but are definately more expensive and likely more dangerous. Neither fully simulates the variety of injuries that you can sustain from being shot, though if you are shot repeatedly it hardly matters.

 

Not by much. You can get handgun paint ball guns that look like the real thing, or shotguns, or other things of that nature. He isn't talking about training with a clear plastic Stingray you bought at wal-mart, he is talking about using the paintball guns used for simulations in Police training.

 

By the way, when are you going to answer my spacific questions?

[aznkarateboi]

What's fish hooking?

[JerryLove]

All can be done safely in sparring with appropriate gear.

 

Shooting - Paintball

 

Stabbing - Don't use live blades.

 

Yes, but you are no longer training "full contact against a resisting opponent". And non-live blades are quite damagin on their own.

biting - don't bite hard, some groups DO train this in sparring

 

Fish hooking - Don't rip it to hard

So "pull the punch"? I thought that was exactly the type of training that MMA was railing was ineffective?

Use apropriate safety gear.

And that's realistic how? In case you run into someone in a face mask with elbow and knee pads and a cup walking down the canvas-covered street?

So shoot targets, play with paint balls and laser guns. Do that and you'll get the skill. Just doing the research won't give you anything.

 

But how do I know which ones work? This would be analogous to point sparring where you attempt to successfully touh without ever getting a real reaction from which to gauge. A person hit with a paintball will not react the same as one hit with a bullet.

I train with weapons all the time. Use protective equipment when necessary.

 

Making the training "unreal" and therefore not what is being pushed as MMA here.

 

Me? I think wearing geat you would not normally wear is "unrealistic".

Pretty good idea. It's not hard to figure out. But should it fail be prepared to follow up as necessary.

 

Buit you have not actually been performing breaks against resisting opponents in free-sparring? You have just been "pulling the hit"? Sounds like TMA.

It's not just testing to see if it works, it;s learning to do it against resistance. You know that getting cracked across the head with a stick, so do the dog brothers. Who do you think is more likely to get cracked across the head?

 

The guy who is used to allowing his protective gear to absorb the blow.

Royce won, Kimo lost. All the "what ifs" in the world won't change the fact that Royce beat Kimo in a no rules fight.

 

There were plenty of rules. Royce beat Kimo in an arranged, controlled fight. I'm not saying he would have won or lost had it been in an alley somewhere; I'm just saying that the claim that there is no difference is false.