kata application helpful for real fighting?

[AndrewGreen]

No, two very different things.

[Drunken Monkey]

how is it different?

 

why do you have this thing against forms training?

[AndrewGreen]

Got nothing against it, just doesn't help for fighting which was the question in this thread. There are other purposes though.

 

The difference is pretty clear, but if you can't see it I don't think anything I say will change your mind.

 

It's like someone arguing that a apple is the same as a car. If they truely believe that there is nothing that can be said to convince them otherwise.

[Drunken Monkey]

you have said that forms is dead and to a certain point i agree with that but then forms are not really meant to be alive.

 

you practice a form for the body; to develop agility, muscle memory, stamina etc etc.

 

the original point of teaching in this way was because often, the sifu could not spend all of his time with every student. thus forms was merely a way for the students to learn the moves and practice the moves which the senior students can monitor.

 

a lot of the confusion/argument surrounding forms today, comes from people taking the forms themselves to be the be all and end all of martial arts.

 

it is just a record of moves.

[Drunken Monkey]

not really a good analogy.

 

i agree, forms are not the best way to train for fighting but they are a good way to practice the art.

 

it helps you remember your techniques which you practice with a partner.

 

you don't have to practice forms.

 

you can just practice loose moves and chain things together yoursef.

 

both produce the same result.

[Drunken Monkey]

(typo correction)

 

just a point.

 

personally, i am always dubious whenever someone says that they use kata/forms to fight.

 

past experience has shown me that sometimes some kid just copies things he reads/sees in a book and learns the form pretty well and then goes around saying he knows the art.

 

he will then go around showing off his form but he will not have gone through the process of disecting the form and practicing the moves against a live partner (sorry for the terrible sentence structure)

[Goju1]

Got nothing against it, just doesn't help for fighting which was the question in this thread. There are other purposes though.

 

The difference is pretty clear, but if you can't see it I don't think anything I say will change your mind.

 

It's like someone arguing that a apple is the same as a car. If they truely believe that there is nothing that can be said to convince them otherwise.

 

Just curious: do you practice kata? What style, and for what reason?

 

In response to the original question, I would have to say yes, kata practice is important in 'real' fighting, but especially if the applications are stressed and practiced at real-time speed and power.

[Drunken Monkey]

(still chasing them typos)

 

i know i haven't been too clear about this but i'll try to explain what i think forms are for.

 

kata/forms is for practicing the moves

 

not for practicing fighting.

 

fighting is you using the moves you know in a combat scenario.

 

but before you do this, you have to learn the moves and to learn moving between moves etc etc.

 

forms training just does this in an organised way.

 

because the training is in an organised fashion, you are more likely to remember more moves and be more able to execute them continuously.

 

more importantly, forms training helps develop muscle memory better because of the complexity of the sequence you are practicing.

 

training for fighting and hence, training applications is a different matter.

Edited August 11, 2003 by Drunken Monkey

[Goju1]

i know i haven't been too clear about this but i'll try to explain what i think forms are for.

 

kata/forms is for practicing the moves

 

not for practicing fighting.

 

fighting is you using the moves you know in a combat scenario.

 

but before you do this, you have to learn the moves and to learn moving between moves etc etc.

 

forms training just does this in an organised way.

 

because the training is in an organised fashion, you are more likely to remember more moves and be more able to execute them continuously.

 

more importantantly, forms training helps develop muscle memory better because of the complexity of the sequence you are practicing.

 

training for fighting and hence, training applications is a different matter.

 

Well said, but I still feel and see more in the Kata, just can't quite explain it in writing, y'know?

[Drunken Monkey]

well isn't that your own personal touch comes into it?

 

part of learning is discovering what you can do.

 

i don't think it really matters if it part of the forms original intention, if it works for you then it works.

 

after all, everyone is different.

 

i will use a technique from a form differently to how you would use the technique. we both might get it to do what we want it to do but neither of us would have done it like how the form shows us to.

 

but it is our training in the form that would have given us our familiarity with the technique.