kata application helpful for real fighting?

[aznkarateboi]

Honestly, would any of you use some of the applications for kata in a fight against an experienced person? Some of the grappling moves seem unrealistic, especially those in heian shodan

[AndrewGreen]

You can find anything you look for in kata, how realistic what you can find depends on your understanding of what works and what doesn't. Of course just cause you can find it doesn't mean it was put there.

 

but kata lacks resistance, timing and adaptability and is not a good way to train for fighting.

[sansoouser]

to me it's exerciese, that's all but I do practice step ins for my throws to get the motion down fast and swift, so it improves your reflexes and smoothness in your techniques, so in a way it's helpful in physical atributes but not in real fighting, it just boosts your speed and overall smoothness.

[Kirves]

but kata lacks resistance, timing and adaptability and is not a good way to train for fighting.

 

Whenever we see in our kata-sessions that someone's training "lacks resistance, timing and adaptability", the instructor tells the training partner to start resisting more and instructs them how to adapt the stuff. If you only do the bunkai without the partner resisting it is useless - "a dead routine" as Matt Thornton would say. Anyone teaching like that isn't competent enough to teach karate.

[AndrewGreen]

Hate to say it but,

 

If you are still doing something called kata, and think it is "Alive" in the sense that Matt Thorton you have not only missed the bus, but still not found the bus stop...

[Kirves]

Matt Thornton has never seen kata training. He has only seen solo training. And that is because 99% of modern schools only do that. I fully agree with Matt on this issue. If we are talking about kata training, or ti-chi-ki, as it is called in uchinanguchi, it means sparring with the stuff against fully resisting opponents.

[AndrewGreen]

So you alone hold the secrets of making kata alive?

 

No, kata is a pattern, whatever you are doing you are within that pattern. Even if you are attacking randomly within the pattern, you are still following a pattern. If you are not, it is not kata.

[Kirves]

No, I alone don't hold the secrets. The problem is that most kata taught today is taught in the Japanese manner, not Okinawan. But go see Okinawan styles and you may get a wake up call. Most karate clubs in the world teach kata with tournament style, the rest teach with Japanese post WW2 style. Only few (Okinawan Goju-ryu, Seibukan Shorin-ryu, Seito Matsumura Shorin-ryu, Uechi-ryu, and few others) teach it the Okinawan ti-chi-ki style.

If you are not, it is not kata.

 

You make the mistake that all Americans (at least online) seem to make. You think that when you do solo pattern training that is kata training. No! That is solo pattern training. Kata training involves partner and non-coreographed fighting. You cannot, I repeat CANNOT say you are training kata, if all you do is practice a solo dance. They did not learn to fight on Okinawa like that and neither will you. On Okinawa they trained ti-chi-ki, with partner, with full contact, and non-coreographed. That is how you learn to fight. That is kata training. Solo training is just the notebook of what your style contains, but reading the book is not training it. It is just reading. Training means take your partner and do ti-chi-ki drills and kumite with the stuff you get from the notebook (=kata solo pattern).

[AndrewGreen]

Been involved with Okinawan styles for a long time, What you are doing does not fit there definition of "alive".

 

If you like I can give you the addresses of some of the boards that are frequented by Matt Thorton and other SBGI coaches, you can tell them what you do, I'm sure they'd be grateful to hear about "alive" kata. Which based on what they mean by "alive" and what kata is, is a contradiction.

[Kirves]

Gsus, how difficult is it to understand. Kata, as a solo pattern, as a notebook of techniques, is as dead as Matt Thornton's instructional videos. They are just a way to remember and instruct techniques.

 

But training at Matt's gym, does not mean sitting and watching his videos. Nor does training in karate mean doing solo patterns (= reading the notes).