Kirves Posted July 31, 2003 Posted July 31, 2003 You can't shake the hips to generate power when you are too low. You only manage a weak excuse of an shake.
Sho-ju Posted July 31, 2003 Posted July 31, 2003 I'm only echoing Oyama, Motobu and Funakoshi. But what do they know...
Kirves Posted August 1, 2003 Posted August 1, 2003 Sho-ju: See what Funakoshi meant with "low" in the pic link I posted previously (there you see, among other stances, his kiba-dachi too). You can also look up the book by Motobu, same thing. Their low isn't half as low as today's Shotokan's. They meant low compared to normal common folk who fought with nearly straight legs, and fighters like boxers. They meant lower than that.
Sho-ju Posted August 1, 2003 Posted August 1, 2003 Funakoshi also states that low stances are to be mastered first, the higher stances are for more advanced. I understand your point, but I do feel Funakoshi did teach lower stances then what was common, even if the pictures don't show this. He was advanced and could have been following his own advice. Yes shotokan has dropped all stances far below what Funakoshi had in mind but shotokan was only an idea in his mind, and grow under the JKA into the shotokan of today. You can see one of ideas in the link you provided. The hand at hip and not higher by the nipple... His kiba would not even be considered a kiba today but naihachi dachi. Tekki is suppose to be a kata filled with grappling waza and perhaps that's why it's so square. (ex. freestyle wrestling/judo you remain low and square) Good topic.
Gino Posted August 1, 2003 Posted August 1, 2003 Kiba dachi performed to low is practically useless as a fighting postion, you need to be able to pull out very quickly,if your to low thats imposible. If you want to strengthen your legs squats are good you shouldn't confuse the two.When doing squats you can dip very deep and then push up to acheive the leg strengthening excersise. Of course different styles will tell you different things but I would be amazed if an experienced teacher told you to go as low as you can to perform Kiba dachi properly. Never give in
Kirves Posted August 1, 2003 Posted August 1, 2003 Sho-ju: An honest question; Why would you want to train for years the kind of fighting stances you can't really fight in, just with the idea that "once I'm a black belt, then I'll train with a realistic fighting stance" in mind? I find it odd, unless you are training with completely other aspects than fighting skills as your priority. I want to study stuff that is directly usable in a fight, not something that after five years, must be modified to be applicaple for fighting. Especially if the reasons are so vague... "It strengthens your legs and hips" and so on. I know lots of more efficient ways to strengthen my legs and hips thank you very much.
Sho-ju Posted August 1, 2003 Posted August 1, 2003 I would have to say that all Shotokan stances are useless in a real fight. So why do we train in them? To develop strength in the legs and hips. Just like the basketball player who lifts weights in the gym, we use our stances as resistance exercises. I can attest to almost 15 years of low Shotokan stances, my legs are very stronger and my lower body endurance is awesome. When it comes to a fight the lower body is the foundation and we need both endurance and strength for longer fights. Can higher stances accomplish this, sure, but to a lesser degree. Another reason is “do.” It becomes a battle when your tried to remain low and in stance. This aspect is not readily found in the kihon of Okinawan styles. It has nothing to do with fighting but yourself. You against the stance, the battle then is against yourself. These are the reasons why, for me anyways, that I teach lower stances. I use a boxing stance for fighting, it comes natural and my movements are faster from training in the low stances. If you can move fast with power in a low stance normally you can almost double it in a higher stance. Besides, Shotokan stances are not really that low. Only in tournament style kata.
Kirves Posted August 2, 2003 Posted August 2, 2003 I can understand your reasoning with "do". That is okay. But using leg strengthening as an excuse is bad. Back then it may have seemed to be the only way to do it, but in this day and age, there's a reason why boxers, football players, basketball players, wrestlers, judoka and so on go lift weights instead of building their strength standing in a low stance for hours. There are so many better ways. Better meaning = no need to do it for 15 years, and no need to study fighting with bad habits.
Sho-ju Posted August 2, 2003 Posted August 2, 2003 I can understand your reasoning with "do". That is okay. But using leg strengthening as an excuse is bad. Back then it may have seemed to be the only way to do it, but in this day and age, there's a reason why boxers, football players, basketball players, wrestlers, judoka and so on go lift weights instead of building their strength standing in a low stance for hours. There are so many better ways. Better meaning = no need to do it for 15 years, and no need to study fighting with bad habits. Better ways, that’s a matter of opinion. Karate is an art as well so the low stance is not for fighting but for betterment of self and for strength as I stated before. Do as you like. Spend 2 hours daily in karate then head to the gym to work your legs, it's up to you. I just don't have the time, never had the time to do both karate and lift weights. I work two jobs, run a dojo and have a family...doesn't leave extra time for the gym. Maybe you do have time, great!. It's all a matter of opinion.
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