Kirves Posted July 25, 2003 Share Posted July 25, 2003 JJ is definitely very effective on the deck For some reason I get the feeling you are talking about BJJ? Most JJ styles don't focus on groundfighting at all. JJ is the art of the samurai, and for a samurai to fall down on battlefield meant certain death (around you are a gazillion sword wielding, armored enemies, they'll cut your head off). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punchdrunk Posted July 25, 2003 Share Posted July 25, 2003 The elbow in the back of the neck move is highly overated as a defense against BJJ/wrestling. If you are in a stationary clinch it is fine but against a grappler who is taking a shot for a takedown, the momentum is against you. Frequently one or both feet aren't even on the ground. It is pretty hard to generate much power in that situation, even if you are just being forced to lean away from your target. There are plenty of examples of this from the early days of Vale Tudo and even the first few UFC's when style contrasts were more drastic. Prodigal, specifically why do you find Wing chun works better for you than MT? One cannot choose to be passive without the option to be aggressive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prodigal Son Posted July 25, 2003 Share Posted July 25, 2003 JJ is definitely very effective on the deck For some reason I get the feeling you are talking about BJJ? Most JJ styles don't focus on groundfighting at all. JJ is the art of the samurai, and for a samurai to fall down on battlefield meant certain death (around you are a gazillion sword wielding, armored enemies, they'll cut your head off). Thanks Kirves - you are absolutely right. >>>PS ------------------------------------------------------------------------Self-defense is only an illusion, a dark cloak beneath which lurks a razor-sharp dagger waiting to be plunged into the first unwary victim. Sifu Wong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treebranch Posted July 25, 2003 Share Posted July 25, 2003 Kirves I agree with you for the most part. We do train full contact with proper gear of course. The training methods are key to any style. A NHB fighter is a trained fighter and more than likely with additiional training for combat would be awesome. But he is not taining for that, he is training for competition. Competition and Combat are 2 entirely different things, hence one is Sport and the other Combat. One is life and death, the other is to win. The difference is obvious and by your statements you already know that. "It is easier to find men who will volunteer to die, than to find those who are willing to endure pain with patience.""Lock em out or Knock em out" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirves Posted July 25, 2003 Share Posted July 25, 2003 The elbow in the back of the neck move is highly overated as a defense against BJJ/wrestling. You hit the nail right on the head with that one! It is one of the favored moves against takedowns amongst people who never actually go against live grapplers. This is one aspect of "alive" training. Try it against someone for real. People always say "I'll elbow his neck" or "I'll knee his face" but when a grappler attacks they go down. I've seen it happen many times, and it made me a convert. Today I believe in sparring with as many people as possible. That is where you get to learn stuff. No matter what the rules, someone says let's spar, I'll spar. I'm 28 years old and it only took me over 10 years to realize this. Previously I never sparred as I always thought "my technique is only for real fighting, it is too deady". When I trained JKD I got my first wake up calls, none and I mean NONE of the stuff I thought I knew helped me when my instructor told me "do whatever" and attacked me. "Aliveness" seems to be the key, try what you know in a live manner, the attacker really resists and you really resist. That's a fight. Sorry to go off on a tangent and off-topic, but had to vent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treebranch Posted July 25, 2003 Share Posted July 25, 2003 Kirves I know what you're saying and believe me I agree, you learn more from doing. Panic is the true killer of MA, you have to trust in your training no matter what. With us it's trust your Kamae and it always works for me. "It is easier to find men who will volunteer to die, than to find those who are willing to endure pain with patience.""Lock em out or Knock em out" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirves Posted July 25, 2003 Share Posted July 25, 2003 you learn more from doing The best thing said here so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TJS Posted July 26, 2003 Share Posted July 26, 2003 TJS, who was the Kung Fu fighter who was in MMA? Out of curiosity. There have been a few but the most Prominent Was Proabably Jason Delucia. Treebranch-TJS you are convinced that other MA's are not as effective as BJJ and MT In some ways Yes and in other know..I dont think BJJ and MT are perfect but they are extremly effective and are good and there specific field.Yet from your profile you study TKD and Krav Maga I trained in TKD years ago and I do train in BJJ to some extent...The Fighting aspect of KM is very similar to Muay Thai but with some obviosu diffrences.BJJ and MT may be the most successful in the ring, no one knows what's the most successful in the real world. If they are succesful In a Ring with Limited rules against trained fighters I would tend to belive they would be somewhat effective outside a ring against normal people.no one knows what's the most successful in the real world I guess you cant "prove" anything but i have a pretty good idea myself.Just know that two people fighting in a ring are very different than someone attaking you on the street. However brutal UFC fight can get, a Street Fight or Combat is much more brutal I realize that. Obviously there are many diffrences and those should be adressed..I still belive someone who has fought before will be better prepared than someone who has not.So before you measure the effectiveness of all MA's based on UFC fights I measure what techniques more than what stlyes...When the Rules are no biting and no eye gouging i think you still get a good idea of what works.You might learn that certain people can fight and some can't no matter what the style Yea the same is true of basketball players...I dont see the point.People who like to fight in competition will study MT and BJJ or San Shou, or Judo, etc. possibley...if I am attacked by someone on the street it's about survival, and I personally will do anything to survive however dirty and unsportman like that may be. SO would anyone...I dont know what your saying...grappler wouldent throw punches or a boxer wouldent kick someone in the ground? I dont know what the point of that is.When someone attacks you on the street or in Combat, the goal is survival. Two UFC fighters are not going in there to kill eachother Ok...? Did anyone say otherwise? but guess what i bet the winner of the fight would be in a good position to do serious damage if he wanted too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punchdrunk Posted July 26, 2003 Share Posted July 26, 2003 What is the deal with biting and eye-gouging? Is there some way to train for this that I am unaware of? If you are close enough to me to do it to me then I can do it back. Are there some Kung fu schools where they actually bite and gouge each other in sparring? Ugly blind students. Otherwise it is just more theory. As Dr. Doom used to say "Bah you fools!". As for UFC fighters not going into kill each other - it sure doesn't look like point sparring. If you want to fight against weapons - spar against somebody who has weapons (assuming you want to survive try a rubber knife or a paint gun) who is actually trying to get you. You will find out if your training works or not. If you want to see how you will do against multiple opponents - spar against multiple opponents. That is the real strength of good MA training - sparring hard and live against partners you can trust under a trainer who is wise and teaches good technique. These are the trademarks of BJJ, sambo, boxing, MT, wrestling, Kyokushin, Enshin, Shidokan, San Shou and advanced judo. That's why these are styles that keep winning in competition AND on the street. One cannot choose to be passive without the option to be aggressive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TJS Posted July 26, 2003 Share Posted July 26, 2003 What is the deal with biting and eye-gouging? Is there some way to train for this that I am unaware of? If you are close enough to me to do it to me then I can do it back. Exactly..I dont think it gives either side a clear advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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