wing chun kuen man Posted June 15, 2004 Share Posted June 15, 2004 Drunken Monkey, It was a rewarding experience discussing kung fu with you....later on I will have info about my lineage. Until later. Wing Chun Quen Man Real traditional martial arts training is difficult to find.....most dojos in the west are Mcdojos....some are better and some are worst....but they are what they are....do you train in one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slider33 Posted June 15, 2004 Share Posted June 15, 2004 Finally got caught up on the reading... This thread has helped me quite a bit, I'm definetely looking to starting a MA and I've had some questions on which one to choose, limited by what I actually have access to of course. I've seen Wing Chun show up frequently on people's lists so I'm definetely leaning towards that as one of my choices. It sounds like what I am looking for, and I think there are a few places where I live that teach it. So I may be in luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wing chun kuen man Posted June 15, 2004 Share Posted June 15, 2004 Slider33, I am glad that you found the thread usefull, I wish you luck in your Wing Chun journey. I hope that you find a good school and when you do the rest is up to you. All you need is patience and hard work and dedication. Good Luck, Wing Chun Kuen Man Real traditional martial arts training is difficult to find.....most dojos in the west are Mcdojos....some are better and some are worst....but they are what they are....do you train in one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SevenStar Posted June 15, 2004 Share Posted June 15, 2004 Good post! The only thing I want to comment on is this:Most real kung fu people that I know will never enter tournaments, but of course there some who do. As a rule of thumb, if you go to a match and see a "kung fu fighter" bouncing around on his toes on the mat then you can consider him a non kung fu fighter because bouncing around on the toes does not exist in real traditional kung fu (nor in real traditional karate, so I am told). why is that the real ones seem to choose not to compete? People always make that statement. Masters back in the day had challenge matches, and kuoshu, san da, nhb, etc. are the next best thing to that these days. As far as the bouncing thing, that's not a boxing or muay thai thing either - people may do it when they are diesngaged from their opponents for various reasons, but as soon as you get within even the furthest striking range (kicking) the bouncing stops. boxing and thai foot work is shuffling, stepping and lunging, not bouncing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wing chun kuen man Posted June 15, 2004 Share Posted June 15, 2004 Hello, The fact of the matter is that real kung fu experts rarely compete. I can take my own trainning as reference where the sifu is teaching in a traditional manner and has made it clear to everyone in his class that competition is irrelevant to what they are learning. I can see his point. These arts were never meant to be used to win trophies, not in their original and traditional form anyway. When I am practicing for example all my strikes are aimed at vital areas and all the strikes coming in are aimed at my vital areas, if they get through they make light and sometimes painful contact. The aim in everyday trainning is to destroy (not necessarilly kill) the opponent as quickly as possible. This is the mindset in every practise session. There are no gradings either, when my sifu believes that someone has achieved a certain level he will upgrade his trainning. We have no belt system either. All students wear black sashes while sifu wears his golden one. As you said masters back in the day had challenge matches. This continues on today and I believe the only way you are going to see most kung fu experts fight is through this type of challenges. There are no fees to be paid and no qualifying matches, that means even people from this forum who bad mouth kung fu (you´ve read their posts too), can make challenges, but will they ever? Will any of them have the guts to go to a real chinese kung fu master´s school or a visiting masters seminar and look him in the eyes and challenge him or any of his top disciples. Or will they prefer to go to John Smiths Dimmak Kung Fu McDojo and challenge and bit up Mr Smith and say afterwards that they destroyed a kung fu/dimmak master in a challenge match thus "proving" that kung fu does not work and that it is only a dance. [by the way, most salsa dancers that I know will put up a better fight then a Mcdojo master...lol]. Actually most official challenges are made in written form as well as oral form, and it is all done very respectfully. And about the bouncing around thing by that I was referring to shuffling as well. It may be part of Muay Thai and Boxing technique and may combine and compliment the strategies and principles of these arts, but it is not part of traditional kung fu. That kind of footwork cannot be combined with correct kung fu hand/foot technique where the practitioner needs a stronger/deeper base. At worst you will see some kung fu "fighters" really bouncing around in a way not only alien to kung fu but also probably to Thai boxing as well. Were it not for the uniforms it would even be difficult to identify them as kung fu men. Until next time, Wing Chun Kuen Man Real traditional martial arts training is difficult to find.....most dojos in the west are Mcdojos....some are better and some are worst....but they are what they are....do you train in one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wing chun kuen man Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 Drunken Monkey, I have got it at last, here is some quick info on the lineage of Wing Chun that I practice. My sifu´s name is Andria Pivcevic, chinese name Liang Shen long. He is a closed door disciple of grand master Leung kit Chow, of mainland China, who in turn studied Wing Chun under Sum Nung (who was a disciple of Yuen Kay San) and Losiu Wan, of Fung Siu Ching lineage. Losiu Wan was Leung Kit Chow´s main Wing Chun master. Also, Leung Kit Chow is a grand master in various shaolin styles of kung fu. I hope the info was usefull, Until next time, Wing Chun Kuen Man Real traditional martial arts training is difficult to find.....most dojos in the west are Mcdojos....some are better and some are worst....but they are what they are....do you train in one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drunken Monkey Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 actually, i was only really after the name yuen kay san or sum nung cos that would've answered all of my questions. hmm, so that would mean you have the 'sup gee sau' as part of your training, right? i also see what you mean by use of different, more classical stances post count is directly related to how much free time you have, not how intelligent you are."When you have to kill a man it costs nothing to be polite." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SevenStar Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 Hello, The fact of the matter is that real kung fu experts rarely compete. I can take my own trainning as reference where the sifu is teaching in a traditional manner and has made it clear to everyone in his class that competition is irrelevant to what they are learning. I can see his point. These arts were never meant to be used to win trophies, not in their original and traditional form anyway. there's the first thing - trian of thought. forget about a trophy. I give all of my kickboxing and judo trophies and medal to my mother - she displays them at her house. competition is a means of testing yourself, IMO. A way to gauge yourself outside of the normal group you train with, in less comfortable circumstances. Such experience is very relevant to learning. When I am practicing for example all my strikes are aimed at vital areas and all the strikes coming in are aimed at my vital areas, if they get through they make light and sometimes painful contact. The aim in everyday trainning is to destroy (not necessarilly kill) the opponent as quickly as possible. This is the mindset in every practise session. I was never taught to train that way - I was trained to think in terms of principles, not techniques. I can use the shuai chiao throw bowing and break your arm as I throw you. Or, I can use the same principle to do a safe version, similar to judo's shoulder throw, that will not harm the arm. I can do tai otoshi and block below the knee, resulting in a safe throw, or block right at knee level, popping your knee - same principle, different application. looking at it that way, it's not hard to compete using your principals without aiming for vital areas. Also, many of these areas are legal striking areas in nhb. There are no gradings either, when my sifu believes that someone has achieved a certain level he will upgrade his trainning. We have no belt system either. there is value in the ranking system. The problem is that these days, many people use it improperly... All students wear black sashes while sifu wears his golden one. As you said masters back in the day had challenge matches. This continues on today and I believe the only way you are going to see most kung fu experts fight is through this type of challenges. what I've seen so far is that they don't fight at all. Not even in their own venues, like kuo shu and san da. There are no fees to be paid and no qualifying matches, that means even people from this forum who bad mouth kung fu (you´ve read their posts too), can make challenges, but will they ever? Will any of them have the guts to go to a real chinese kung fu master´s school or a visiting masters seminar and look him in the eyes and challenge him or any of his top disciples. Or will they prefer to go to John Smiths Dimmak Kung Fu McDojo and challenge and bit up Mr Smith and say afterwards that they destroyed a kung fu/dimmak master in a challenge match thus "proving" that kung fu does not work and that it is only a dance. I hear ya - there is a lot of trash talking in the world. But, I think you'd be surprised at how many people are willing to challenge / accept a challenge from ANY school, regardless of it's rep. And about the bouncing around thing by that I was referring to shuffling as well. It may be part of Muay Thai and Boxing technique and may combine and compliment the strategies and principles of these arts, but it is not part of traditional kung fu. That kind of footwork cannot be combined with correct kung fu hand/foot technique where the practitioner needs a stronger/deeper base. At worst you will see some kung fu "fighters" really bouncing around in a way not only alien to kung fu but also probably to Thai boxing as well. Were it not for the uniforms it would even be difficult to identify them as kung fu men. I've seen shuffling in kung fu - learned it too. various styles use it, and mantis even has a form called shuffling step. I believe it's ape or monkey type footwork. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wing chun kuen man Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 Hello, I understand your first point. Competition does definitley give you a different perspective and can be considered as an extension of your training, physical and more importantly mental where as you said, you are involved with people outside of your usual comfort zone. However, in many traditional schools it is not considered as a desirable thing, that is just a fact and it works for them. The mental training in traditional kung fu is approached in a very different manner. Also, you may be in the minority when it comes to the lack of importance that you give to your trophies, and that is something to be admired. As far as the way we practice, it is the way it is in our clan, it works for us just the way your way works for you. I suppose there are no absolute truths and there are we will come to find out by ourselves in the future. Belt system. This is just a traditional kung fu thing. Some systems may have adopted the japanese style belt systems but many haven´t. I personally don´t have anything against it. As long as it is not used improperly. Obviously, those who regularly train in our school know who is who in the school without the benefit of the colored belts. Challenges. They do happen today much more than many people think. You don´t just hear about it that much. The kind of kung fu mentality that considers competitions irrelevant where trophies and medals are things more related to vanity and not martial arts, is hardly likely to be boasting about the number of challenges won. The loosers of the challenges do not usually advertise the fact either. From what I know, these are usually low key events, where some papers are signed and each side has a witness or two and the comfrontation may take place in either side`s school or on neutral ground. The main points above refer to challenges made between kung fu schools. I am sure that if a non-chinese style is involved in a challenge with a kung fu school and if they win then there will be more publicity because this kind of publicity nowaday will mean $$$$$$ for the winner`s school. So why don´t we hear about them? Could it be that potential challengers don´t know that many kung fu schools will fight if challenged (maybe some wouldn´t but many will). Your guess is as good as mine. In the 1990´s when my sifu was based in france and was an istructor in his master´s school, there would on occassions be approached by challengers from other kung fu schools as well as kick boxers, karate men etc. Now, we are talking about a very low profile school in the master´s own house without any neon signs or anything. Here in brazil, my sifu has accepted challenges from other Wing Chun schools - full contact, no gloves and very ugly. If there are any people who have doubts about kung fu (or any martial art) that they don´t find in normal competition then if they have what it takes can go and challenge whomever they want. They don´t have to do it and it is not a necessary part of training in martial arts but if they are going to bad mouth any fighting system/art they might as well put their money where their mouth is and find out for themselves. What is called shuffling as well as thousands of other techniques that exist in other martial arts- and many that don´t - exist in the hundreds of styles of kung fu that exist today. However, I will say again when you see a kung fu competitor boucing around on his toes (without a base), something that we see a lot in sport martial arts nowadays, then beware, because that is not real kung fu. Until next time, Wing Chun Kuen Man Real traditional martial arts training is difficult to find.....most dojos in the west are Mcdojos....some are better and some are worst....but they are what they are....do you train in one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wing chun kuen man Posted June 16, 2004 Share Posted June 16, 2004 Drunken Monkey, Glad that you found the info useful. Sup Jee Sao is the cross shaped hand movement that we use in the beginning of the Siu Nim Tao. What do you use in your school, is it a triple fist combination by any chance? I think that our stances are mostly similar to that of Hong Kong schools. However, in one of my earlier posts on this thread I did mention wider shaolin type stances that exist in another mainland chinese branch of Wing Chun, which according to my sifu is probably a family style. Wing Chun Kuen Man Real traditional martial arts training is difficult to find.....most dojos in the west are Mcdojos....some are better and some are worst....but they are what they are....do you train in one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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