Top 10 Self Defense Martial Arts

[Drunken Monkey]

i should point out that i only know the names of things in cantonese....

 

for me the river is called 'cheung hor'.

 

um, i thought the yangtze was the 'yellow river'.

 

i could be wrong.

 

like i said, i only know the names in cantonese.

 

the term longfist is a bit confusing.

 

in chinese it is used to refere to both the style of long fist as well as the form itself called 'long fist'.

 

when you mentioned shaolin longfist, i assumed you were talking about the form, not the style (seeing as 'shaolin longfist' isn't a style, whilst it is a derivitive of shaolin...).

 

also, i know of longfist, the form, to be long, low and full of whipping, hip generated power.

 

not really a long range as it isn't that mobile (able to close gaps) compared to something similar like choy li fut.

 

i said this briefly before but the long range capabilities of wing chun, as i understand it, is its ability to close gaps;

 

getting from out of range to in controlling range in one movement (be it one step or two or whatever).

 

that is how wing chun deals with range.

 

also, technically, it isn't really about range.

 

it's about not letting the opponent do what they want to do.

 

as a result, there are lots of traps, minor locks, control of opponents movement/direction.

 

add this to the fact that you should be also be pressing, the opponent should have no option except to go backwards (again, think of what would be happening in an alley with wing chun against shaolin..)

 

i have to say that what yip man did to his line of wing chun from futshan to hk was not modify the moves but modify the names.

 

at a rather famous meeting between yip chun and some of the futshan wing chun guys, they compared techniques and they were more or less identical apart from the names.

 

what yip man did was to remove the old obscure terms; five elements in footwork

 

and

 

replace them with simple terms; step, cross, shift

 

(approximate translations from chinese)

 

i would say that it was leung jan who started the simplying.

 

some say it was to give less for chan wah sum to learn, some say say it was to make learning it easier.

 

what ever the reason, it is known that one of the last things he said that part of his wish was to make wing chun accessible to everyone, to make it simple so everyone can learn.

 

you said something about high level shaolin being able to defend against shaolin.

 

this is (in theory) true but not really the same thing as wing chun being 'anti shaolin'.

 

i have never heard of shaolin shortfist used to cover southern shaolin styles.

 

shaolin is a system by itself and includes things (originally) like the 72 'final/specific' arts and fighting forms like iron palm, small plum blossom.

 

wing chun, hung gar, etc are styles by themselves and do not fall under any catagory other than the 'southern fist' ('northern leg') thing.

 

finally the thing with the bricks.

 

i should point out that your head does not have the same properties as a brick or tile.

 

a brick or tile is hard, brittle and has no give.

 

your head can be taken as a point mass on a soft support.

 

add to the fact that i doubt he can get you head in a similar postion to how he breaks objects (i.e resting on a similar hard object whilst he prepares himself for the strike).

 

just out of curiosity, who's the last major head of your line?

 

it would help me understand where you're coming from.

[Drunken Monkey]

double post deleted.

[wing chun kuen man]

Hello,

 

I think that it is very difficult to discuss historical and techniqual aspects about the martial arts generally speaking and especially about kung fu, where its history is full of myths, legends, double meanings and codes. Not to mention the language and the various chinese dialects. As a result definitions become somewhat complicated where you and I might be saying the same thing without knowing that we are saying the same thing. As result any simple discussion can turn into an eternal mental foot ball game. However, I think that if one is studying any martial art, they should try to be a scholar in it or at least have some understanding of its history and characteristics and so on. If I am not mistaken that seems to be your belief as well. My understanding of kung fu, primarily Wing Chun is based on my trainning and the teachings of my sifu as well as my own research. I am trying to learn more and more each day.

 

When I refer to long range in Wing Chun, I am not only referring to its ability to close gaps, which you correctly mentioned, but also to a few of its punching and kicking techinques that are more associated with longer range styles. Overwhelming and "running over" of an opponnent is an important priciple, but this not a concept that is exclusive to WC. Tiger claw style uses this principle as well, of course in its own peculiar way. It also has its own versions of short explosive punches that many associate with Wing Chun.

 

As for Yip Man, he did take out some techniques from his original Wing Chun, to make it "more accessible". Also some of the original trainnig methods used on the mainland were supposedly taken out by him. This does not make his Wing Chun weak or anything like that, but it does make shall we say less rich. The positive side of this is that Yip Mans art was practical and could be mastered in a relatively short time, which in turn contributed to it becoming popular world wide (with a little help from Bruce Lee of course). One example of a discarded technique is the low level to mid level round kick which we practice in our system that I am told does not exist in the Yip Man style.

 

As for Wing Chun being "anti shaolin", you have something there that I think is worth looking into and I will. I know the techniques can be used against the shaolin arts but at the same time as I said before other high level

 

systems possess this capability, because like Wing Chun they can trace their roots to the Shaolin temple (the snake and the crane etc.) where there was constant interaction within the styles and the stylists who tested and researched each other´s strengh and weaknesses to improve their capabilities.

 

Just quickly. As far as breaking hard objects is concerned I think that it is an important aspect at the higher levels of martial art training and not important in the lower levels. It is my belief that non-martial artists can learn to break hard objects without having to train in martial arts and this ability will be irrelevant in a real fight because as you correctly implied in your post , the dynamics are different when it comes to someones head. In short if I have a street confrontation with a lets say a big gorilla type who is known for his habit of breaking hard objects I will not feel as threatened than say facing somebody who is trainned lets say in real traditional Okinawan karate or kung fu for 10 years and whom has the cabability to punch through breaks and rocks. In the real traditional martial arts the breaking techniques were always connected to combat effectiveness, ie. breaking bricks would translate to breaking human bones. Of course as you said the human head is different from a brick. A real karate/kung fu man would compensate for the difference by perhaps supporting the back of the head of a weakenned opponent with one hand while striking the face with

 

the other. Of course the face or the head will not break like a brick but the damage can be lethal. At high levels breaking techniques can be used to break collar bones and limbs, but of course as you said there is a difference. There is another even higher level to breaking in internal chinese martial arts where the experts transfer their energy through layers, eg.breaking the third or fourth tyle in a stack without damaging the first two, meaning that instead of causing external damage only the strike will cause intenal organ rapture in a real confrontation. Again I am talking about the high level martial applications and not some circus side show.

 

My lineage. I have been given the written information and a chart on my lineage by my sifu, now if I can just find it. I will be trainning with him on Tuesday and if I have not found the info by then I will ask him to tell me about the lineage again and I will post it here, OK?

 

Peace,

 

Wing Chun Kuen Man

[SevenStar]

As for Wing Chun being "anti shaolin", you have something there that I think is worth looking into and I will. I know the techniques can be used against the shaolin arts but at the same time as I said before other high level

 

systems possess this capability, because like Wing Chun they can trace their roots to the Shaolin temple (the snake and the crane etc.) where there was constant interaction within the styles and the stylists who tested and researched each other´s strengh and weaknesses to improve their capabilities.

 

whether something is "high" or "low" level hardly matters. muay thai, tiger claw, shotokan, etc. can combat shaolin just as easily as any supposed "high level" style.

 

I talked to a WC friend of mine, and he told me that one of the stories behind wing chun is that it was developed specifically to counter longfist styles. Is that what you are referring to?

 

lets say a big gorilla type who is known for his habit of breaking hard objects I will not feel as threatened than say facing somebody who is trainned lets say in real traditional Okinawan karate or kung fu for 10 years and whom has the cabability to punch through breaks and rocks. In the real traditional martial arts the breaking techniques were always connected to combat effectiveness, ie. breaking bricks would translate to breaking human bones.

 

why would you fear that man any more than the gorilla? a good striker has the capability to harm you. what he can break doesn't matter. When was the last time you heard about an iron palm master killing anyone? I'm not an iron palm master, and have knocked people out, broken ribs with kicks, etc. Don't be intimidated by the mention of a technique... that's likely how all of these myths and legends were propogated in the first place.

 

Of course as you said the human head is different from a brick. A real karate/kung fu man would compensate for the difference by perhaps supporting the back of the head of a weakenned opponent with one hand while striking the face with

 

the other.

 

if he's so weakened that you can support the back of his head without him moving, then you syhould have no need to attempt shattering his skull.

 

Of course the face or the head will not break like a brick but the damage can be lethal.

 

not likely. the skull is the hardest part of the body. and the old "break the nose and push it into their brain" thing is a myth.

 

At high levels breaking techniques can be used to break collar bones and limbs, but of course as you said there is a difference.

 

All this high level / low level stuff amuses me. my first day in bjj, I learned to break an arm and tear a shoulder joint. Is that high level? no, surely not.

 

There is another even higher level to breaking in internal chinese martial arts where the experts transfer their energy through layers, eg.breaking the third or fourth tyle in a stack without damaging the first two, meaning that instead of causing external damage only the strike will cause intenal organ rapture in a real confrontation. Again I am talking about the high level martial applications and not some circus side show.

 

1. it's unlikely that anyone on this forum will ever be able to do that.

 

2. if you could, how instantaneous is it transmitted? is it a specific strike?

 

3. a human body is different from a stack of bricks - this isn't a skill that would directly transfer to combat. I can hist you in the bladder or liver area and cause damage like that -it's not that hard. It may or may not rupture - that's the human factor. People are different sizes, have more or less fat, etc. How are you going to know exactly how much force to use on a person to rupture a specific organ? that high level application may as well be in the circus side show, right next to the unbendable arm.

 

Please don't take my responses as a personal shot at you. you just happened to post a lot of things I disagree on...

[Drunken Monkey]

seven

 

i know you weren't really asking me but i'll give you my answer....

 

developed specifically to counter longfist styles

 

kinda true but not the whole story, so to speak.

 

as i said before, longfist as well as being the name for a particular form is also a name for a type of style (and its training)

 

longfist forms tend to be long and complicated, teaching to the best of its abilities, every possible combination of movement (attack +advance, attack+shift etc etc).

 

i'm pretty sure you've seen wing chun forms and training and should have noticed that the training of hand techniques are as good as separate and is up to the practicioner to combine them as he pleases.

 

this is one way in which wing chun counters longfist (training).

 

also, again to do with the forms.

 

in longfist, you would tend to learn the form (after basic stances, steps punching) and then learn applications.

 

in wing chun, you are taught everything (kind of) at the same time.

 

before you are shown the first form, you are already practicing basic movements that are in the first form and you would be doing basic contact using these movements.

 

then as you are shown the form, you are kinda just adding techniques as well a way of practicing them by yourself.

 

really messy explantion.

 

hope you understand but another way that wing chun counters longfist.

 

also, i again refer to the intended areas of use (i.e the alleys) where the longfist guys are limited whereas wing chun is not.

 

there are a few more ways but the best way to explanin them would be for me to show you as they are slightly more in depth and concern the way techniques work (like a comparison of use of similar techniques)....

 

hope i've made some sense here.

[wing chun kuen man]

,SevenStar,

 

I think drunken monkey answered part of your question. Now, don´t misunderstand me about my gorilla type example, I don´t underestimate any enemy, they could be big or small gorillas, it does not matter. There is a difference between a street thug with breaking abilities and a highly trainned person in REAL traditional Okinawan Karate. If you don´t see that then I won´t be able to make you see it either.

 

Wether something is high or low level DOES matter, because if you knew the difference you would not have been asking me wether it was a specific strike or wether it is instantaneously transferred. Well I´ll answer you anyway, yes it is a specific strike, that is in the way internal energy is projected through an opponnents body. And yes the effect is instantaneous, very much so. The energy penetration can be such that a strike to the chest of a person can not only cause damage to the immediate organs, the heart and the lungs but also go through to the vertebrae, causing immense damage to the central nervous system, independente of the fact of wether the subject is fat or covered in muscles. This among the "high" level of techniques in kung fu and you don´t learn that by punching bags only. It involves long term internal trainning and dedication, that is if you find a genuine school that is willing to accept you as a student. You may believe what I have just said or you may not, but you asked and I answered the best I could.

 

I could break someones arm before I got involved in the martial arts. Many non-martial artists can break arms, fingers, etc. in a fight (sometimes their own lol). However, at advanced levels things are differente, you know that yourself.

 

The holding the head of a weakened opponent´s head, was just an example of the way a bone crushing strike could be delivered to the face/head area and YES it can be lethal. Hits at certain vital areas in the face can lead to death and or permanent injury. It depends of course on the accuracy and the type of delivery and yes I am sorry it is complicated, but that is why it is called High Level. And yes it is unlikely that someone in this forum could have this level of ability (you´re telling me?), but if there were people here with this ability they would be unlikely to admit to it publicly, because that is not the values they are taught in high level chinese martial arts and besides, they will be in danger of being condemned to a life in a circus side show by people like you...LOL. Seriously though, if you are genueinly interested and want to go deeper into advanced concepts of the chinese martial arts then you can research it. Look for good books out there and other material on the internet. Because here in the forum it is my word against your word or opinion and we can go on forever. All I am saying is that if you have doubts about what I am saying here, then instead of arguing on the facts with me you may wish to look up other sources, that is if you really want to increase your knowledge in the area of the internal aspects of Kung Fu.

 

Whew, to think that all this started with me stating my top ten self defense arts.......

 

Peace,

 

Wing Chun Kuen Man

[Luckykboxer]

damn its going to take me a month to catch up on this thread as i just entered into it..

 

is it long fist?

 

or long winded?

 

/snickers

 

ill post when i finsih reading

[Drunken Monkey]

*edited a typo*

 

maybe i should've kept my mouth shut...

 

in any case, i'm pretty sure most of you here know my stance on what traditional chinese styles are and what they can or cannot do.

 

hmm, i guess my sifu must be low level sifu then cos he keeps telling me,

 

'who gives a monkey's, just hit the *ucker'

[SevenStar]

There is a difference between a street thug with breaking abilities and a highly trainned person in REAL traditional Okinawan Karate.

 

Not really. I see what you are getting at, but a strong puncher is a strong puncher. period. doesn't matter what style or no style at all. going back to myself as an example, I've broken bones with my strikes before, and I most likely can't break a brick.

 

Wether something is high or low level DOES matter, because if you knew the difference you would not have been asking me wether it was a specific strike or wether it is instantaneously transferred.

 

not true. the whole internal thing depends on the crowd you run with. There are many researchers and MA who will tell you that the term internal really doesn't mean anything. There is plenty of evidence that shows that the term internal was originally only used by a group of MA to describe bagua, xingyi and taiji because of certain similarities the three styles had. nothing more. As fas as energyu transfer goes, yes, the mechanics of "internal" styles are somewhat different, but high level? nah. they just use a different striking method. you can see fa jing in a good boxer. coiling also. in thai boxing, we have applications to yielding and ward off.

 

Well I´ll answer you anyway, yes it is a specific strike, that is in the way internal energy is projected through an opponnents body.

 

I;m not in the train of thought that really believes in such things. I think dim mak type strikes may actually exist, but look at the complexity they get into - striking certain meridians at certain times of day, etc... not too practical, IMO.

 

yes the effect is instantaneous, very much so. The energy penetration can be such that a strike to the chest of a person can not only cause damage to the immediate organs, the heart and the lungs but also go through to the vertebrae, causing immense damage to the central nervous system, independente of the fact of wether the subject is fat or covered in muscles. This among the "high" level of techniques in kung fu and you don´t learn that by punching bags only. It involves long term internal trainning and dedication, that is if you find a genuine school that is willing to accept you as a student. You may believe what I have just said or you may not, but you asked and I answered the best I could.

 

I appreciate the answer. I have actually witnesed such things, having seen dr yang jwing ming in person. I've seen him touch a person's shoulder and make his entire arm go numb. the problem is that such precise striking requires so much time to develop, and that it will still be difficult to do on a moving, resisting opponent...it's rather impractical. I don't really consider these high level strikes. I consider them low % strikes. due to the time it would take to develop them though, I can see why they would be called higher level.

 

I could break someones arm before I got involved in the martial arts. Many non-martial artists can break arms, fingers, etc. in a fight (sometimes their own lol). However, at advanced levels things are differente, you know that yourself.

 

the only way it's really different is efficiency. I could do a kimura before I started judo and bjj. Now, I can do one faster and from a wider variety of setups. The break itself is still the same.

 

The holding the head of a weakened opponent´s head, was just an example of the way a bone crushing strike could be delivered to the face/head area and YES it can be lethal. Hits at certain vital areas in the face can lead to death and or permanent injury. It depends of course on the accuracy and the type of delivery and yes I am sorry it is complicated, but that is why it is called High Level.

 

it would seem that way more deaths would happen in the ring if that were the case, considering the level of face and head contact they have. I know you CAN die from head trauma, a good shot to the temple, etc. but you have to have been hit extremely hard for such a thing to occur.

 

And yes it is unlikely that someone in this forum could have this level of ability (you´re telling me?), but if there were people here with this ability they would be unlikely to admit to it publicly

 

I agree with that.

 

because that is not the values they are taught in high level chinese martial arts and besides, they will be in danger of being condemned to a life in a circus side show by people like you...LOL.

 

lol, I'm not condemning them, just thinking from the standpoint of practicality.

 

Seriously though, if you are genueinly interested and want to go deeper into advanced concepts of the chinese martial arts then you can research it. Look for good books out there and other material on the internet. Because here in the forum it is my word against your word or opinion and we can go on forever. All I am saying is that if you have doubts about what I am saying here, then instead of arguing on the facts with me you may wish to look up other sources, that is if you really want to increase your knowledge in the area of the internal aspects of Kung Fu.

 

Whew, to think that all this started with me stating my top ten self defense arts.......

 

I agree with that also. As I said, I've seen people like yang jwing ming, but some of the stuff in their repotoire strikes me as impractical. good to know, but impractical, especially from a standpoint of teaching self defense.

[wing chun kuen man]

Hello,

 

It is my impression that we agree on a quiete a few points. Just quickly, most kung fu systems if not all have some internal aspects to them even styles that look overtly external such as the tiger claw family of styles - as far as I know this fact is not widely known. The difference generally is in the level the internal energy developed and the way it is delivered . Hence, the higher the level of the style, the more internal energy it uses. Of course there are the styles that are known as internal such as bagua, xingyi(hsing I) and taiji as you correctly mentioned. The Dragon, Snake and the Crane styles are internal as well. The example I gave of the punch to the chest is not really a dimmak technique. Contact has to be made to the general area of the chest, inspite of there being various potentially lethal vital spots in that area. The main factor there is the energy given during the strike. The finger strikes in the Snake style would lose probably 95% of their effectiveness without the use of internal energy. I know that it is difficult to comprehend for someone who is not involved in this type of martial arts...it took me a while as well.

 

Dimmak does exist. It can be either instant or delayed. In most cases it would be used as a last resort technique (the instant dimmak), because any kung fu expert who has achieved these techniques would also know many other less lethal tools to dispose of an opponent or even opponents. The delayed dimmak raises serious issues as it is not a technique to be uses in a fight if you are loosing, because it will not change the outcome, making it by nature a more practical technique to use against somebody who is unaware of it, and here we are talking about premeditated murder. I laugh whenever western "masters" advertise dimmak classes, because what they could be saying is that come and learn how to murder someone without living any clues behind. Thankfully here we are talking about kuakes (I hope it is the right spelling). Many chinese masters will not admit to having such skills even when they do have them and sometimes they will even tell you that they don´t know wether dimmak exists.

 

About the head shots - you are right again. However, as I said before there are vital spots on the human face (also head) and these would have to be hit with precision and again with energy (not only impact). To my knowledge ring or tournament fighters do not train this kind of fighting (thank god) and such concepts would be alien to them. Accidents do happen, but as you implied, not that often. A few years ago here in Brazil in the city of

 

São Paolo, a young lower rank karate fighter (I think he was Shotokan) was killed in a semi contact competion when he was accidently punched in the head.

 

In my opinion the main inpracticality regarding Kung Fu is the complexity of its trainning and the time span involved in gainning the high level skills, which you also touched upon. This is the major factor that will put off potential practitioners specially in our western societies. Another factor that I pointed out before, is that there are not many schools that have the capacity or knowledge to teach real kung fu and few that exist will not just teach anyone. The result is that the general public gets exposed to a lot of "masters", "fighters" etc. who are not real kung fu men. And unfortunately when any of these fakes are exposed for what they are or get knocked out by someone from another style people say "hey look kung fu does not work it is all dance". This I find very sad. Most real kung fu people that I know will never enter tournaments, but of course there some who do. As a rule of thumb, if you go to a match and see a "kung fu fighter" bouncing around on his toes on the mat then you can consider him a non kung fu fighter because bouncing around on the toes does not exist in real traditional kung fu (nor in real traditional karate, so I am told).

 

Here in Rio, in the cradle of BJJ I have been lucky to have found real kung fu and even my sifu can only name me about 3 other genuine sifus whom he knows personally and another 2 whom he wants to meet but cannot locate them because they keep such low profiles.

 

I still maintain that if one wants to learn self defense in a relatively short time then they are better off with a lot of the other martial arts such as bjj, thai boxing, krav maga, etc. I personally have made my choice and for me at least the next few years it is going to be Wing Chun punching, Wing Chun kicking, Wing Chun elbows, Wing Chun finger strikes, Wing Chun grappling and Wing Chun weapons, as you probably know, it is a complete martial art. Then I will begin another kung fu style.

 

Until next time,

 

Wing Chun Kuen Man