if someone pulled a gun on you

[MuayThai Fighter]

You also play into several myths.. the first is how often bullets actually find their intended mark... most shots miss. The second is the result of being shot. If you miagine that, like th emoives, you shoot someone and they just fall down; you will find that life is usually quite different.

 

"With the exceptions of hits to the brain or upper spinal cord, the concept of reliable and reproducible immediate incapacitation of the human target by gunshot wounds to the torso is a myth" - http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm citing the US Dept. of Justice

 

For an idea, take a look at casualty numbers vs death numbers for millitary operations... people survive being shot all the time.

 

You're making a couple of assumptions here, and they are not safe assumptions.

 

A) Typically when a person pulls a gun on you it is a very short range. The trigger is not hard to pull and they have plenty of time to aim unless you react immediately. Most handguns are semi-automatic so you can expect at least 3 rounds per second from a person unloading the gun at you. They aren't likely to be toting a muzzle-loader.

 

B) The stopping power of a bullet is highly dependant on the type of bullet. .22, .38 Special, 9mm, 5.45mm may not drop a target. .45 probrably will. Any magnum cartridge will leave a BIG hole. 5.56 will almost definately drop the target. 454 causall, 7.62 WP, 7.62 NATO, .50 BMG, 20mm Anti-Materiel will not only send pieces of the target flying but will also potentially hurl the target a short distance. Shotgun slugs or even buckshot are extremely hazardous at close ranges. Though handguns in 7.62 and .50 BMG are rare, they are not unheard of. The FBI uses primarily .45 caliber and 9mm rounds. The 9mm round is by far the most common handgun round and that is likely what the above quote was based on. 9mm, though a large bullet, does not have a lot of muzzle energy and has rather poor penetration, but due to the fact that it is extremely common, it is what most people's views on how powerful a gun is are based on.

 

C) The people that are wounded and live in war is ON PURPOSE. They shoot them in the leg, etc. so that two other enemy soldiers have to drag the wounded guy away. That takes three people out of the action for the price of one. 5.56 NATO is definately capable of killing a person wearing armor even at range.

 

D) Criminals don't follow the gun laws and may be packing a machine pistol or submachine gun. It is difficult to miss with an automatic weapon at short range.

 

E) Getting shot causes a great deal of trauma to your nervous system. The nervous system is flooded by this trauma and cannot effectively pass communications from the brain to the muscles. However, small caliber bullets do not exhibit a strong nervous trauma effect. Regardless getting shot will often be followed by getting shot again, and again, until you DO fall over. (as a result of not being able to move coherently)

 

F) Guns don't suddenly stop working at close range and do not have to be lined up with your arm to fire. Grabbing a guys arm will likely result in him twisting his wrist to shoot you in the head.

 

G) If a person is attacking you, they likely believe that they can beat you. Thus, it's only fair to consider that they have as much training with their gun as you have with your martial arts, if not more. Some people are just thugs, but most serious criminals are not lummocks.

 

I agree 100%,war was an excellent example for you to bring up since most soldiers shoot from a distance even at moving targets.

Edited July 8, 2003 by MuayThai Fighter

[MuayThai Fighter]

How about the fact that police officers train shooting at moving targets from a distance,does that mean what they are training is useless,if most times the bullet will miss when a person is running?

 

Criminals that carry weapons and have experience in using them seem to have no problems shooting at police officers while in a car chase and same goes with the police officers shooting back at the criminals.

 

You can run and get shot to death

 

You can scream and still get shot

 

or

 

Just give the person what he/she wants and perhaps survive if you are lucky.

[Martial_Artist]

Ok, obviously you are now speaking from what you have seen on TV or in the movies.

 

Police firearms training is static. Police policy in most departments is never to fire on a fleeing suspect. Here are a couple reasons why:

 

1. It is difficult to hit a moving target with a pistol.

 

2. Missing could result in an innocent being hit with the stray bullet. (Bullets have to go somewhere if they don't hit their intended target)

 

Police aren't even allowed to fire warning shots. (Again that's a movie thing). Because stray bullets have to go somewhere and innocent people do not need to be shot. Police officer training is about cornering the suspect and subduing, not about shooting whilst in pursuit. That, is reckless and not the sign of proper training. A police officer can lose his job over a reckless discharge. A reckless discharge is shooting at a target they have no sure way of hitting. i.e. running.

 

Police do not shoot at criminals during a car chase. It is dangerous. It is reckless. It is against department policy and local laws in almost every state. It is not very easy to hit their target, thus putting civilian lives in danger. Criminals occasionally shoot at police during a pursuit, but there is rarely an instance where they hit their intended target. Again, such a feat is diffifult and very unpractical. This is, again, another common misconception acquired from fiction.

 

As for soldiers: soldiers train primarily with stationary targets and full-auto rifles/carbines. Some are not even issued a sidearm. They also carry selective fire weaponry. They do not, in most cases, have to worry about what lies beyond their target. Firing 3-shot bursts, or full-auto on a fleeing target does make it so much easier to hit a fleeing target. The point is shooting a running target with a pistol is very difficult.

 

Last year on national television the FBI advised the general public on how to avoid being shot. They fully demonstrated how a sporadic zig-zag pattern makes it nearly impossible for the shooter to hit you. The FBI understands this concept.

 

I have come to the conclusion that your knowledge concerning firearms comes from what you perceive the reality of a firearm is, and that this knowledge comes almost exclusively from fiction. I cannot expect a coherent discussion with someone who does not know that police are not allowed to fire at anything they have a chance of missing. (There are liability and legal issues involved).

 

I have been teaching people about the tactical and judicial use of firearms for a few years. I am an Urban Firearms Certified shooter, specializing in concealed carry. I think I know a bit more about the reality of firearms than you do. So, unless you stick to fact, instead of conjecture based on what you see in the movies, then I suggest you refrain from making statements about firearms.

 

It is plain and simple fact. A fleeing human target running in a sporadic zig-zag pattern is extrememly difficult to hit. The odds of a fatal wound being inflicted are as good as being struck by lightning while running in said pattern.

 

You can run and increase survival as distance increases. Turning your back at point blank range will most likely get you shot. Having several feet distance increases the likeliness of escape without injury.

 

You can scream and get shot.

 

You can submit and hope that this criminal will from the bottom of his heart find the goodness not to shoot you. I do not trust my life with a sociopath.

 

Or you can do as 2.5 million Americans do each year. Fight back with a firearm and not suffer injury or loss. I'm sorry, MuayThaiFighter, but you have no clear understanding of firearm use. Fiction has been your instructor on this topic.

 

Armed resistance is the surest way of surviving a violent encounter. Every year 2.5 million armed civilians testify to this.

 

MA.

[ZR440]

I just wish my CCW was accepted in places like DC and Baltimore. I have to go there almost every year.

 

Funny how the places that don't allow concealed carry have the highest crime rate.

[Martial_Artist]

I hear you ZR440. It is funny that way.

[Warp Spider]

Ok, obviously you are now speaking from what you have seen on TV or in the movies.

 

Etc.

 

Your post was almost all about police training.. we weren't talking about the police. At all. This is an attacker pulling a gun on you, likely at very close range. Probrably a criminal. This attacker probrably doesn't give a crap if a stray bullet hits someone else.

 

Carrying a gun yourself is the best solution but not an option in the original question proposed in the thread. Even if you had one, going for your gun would result in being shot repeatedly until you stop moving.

 

Running in a zig zag pattern isn't really an option since if you even MOVE you will probrably be shot repeatedly until you stop moving.

 

This attacker is not a police officer and is not required to account for his actions, until he/she/it is caught. They will likely fire rapid semi-automatic fire, not pot-shots. There's a thing called the bullet-hose effect. It is comparable to the benefits of having a laser sight, which, by the way, the gun in question may already be equipped with.

 

If you get shot at all, you are probrably a dead man, as being shot makes you a fairly easy target to get shot again. And again. And again.

 

The best option would be to go for the guy when he first goes for his gun. Once he's already got it trained on you you're pretty much under his control. The only "safe" option is to surrender and take your chances. If the guy comes up to you to take your wallet/whatever, you might have an opening to try resisting. Depending on where you live, you may have a good chance of living. In the United States, Canada, most of Europe, etc. there is a good chance they will run off with your wallet/whatever, preferring to spend only a few years in jail if caught instead of life. If you live in South Africa, pray you get an opening to attack, and try to say some cool last words. (granted, in South Africa you would probrably be shot immediately instead of being held at gunpoint, but some criminals are inexperienced)

[ZR440]

There are a lot of ifs, but one thing to remember in the US is that many of the armed attackers are idiot punks that carry snub nose revolvers. Even those who carry semi-autos most likely couldn't hit a garbage can if they were standing next to it.

[Martial_Artist]

WarpSpider,

 

According to what happens every year in the US, you are wrong. You are speaking from conjecture, or how you believe a situation will occur without basing it upon factual accounts.

 

I mentioned police training because compared to the average thug they receive better firearms training. If it is diffifult for a police officer to hit a moving target, how much more so for a thug? Again, fiction has dictated how easy it is to shoot someone running away. However, every law enforcement agency teaches that a zig-zag pattern is the best way to avoid getting shot, regardless of how many semi-auto rounds are sent your direction.

 

If the bad-guy is close enough that zig-zag is not an option, and close enough to grab your wallet, then he is close enough to engage.

 

A laser sight does not replace iron-sight technique. It does not improve accuracy. Any tactical pistol instructor will tell you this. Nothing replaces good pistol technique. A laser sight will not magically help you hit your target. Again, fiction.

 

If you get shot, odds are you are not a dead man. Statistically speaking getting shot doesn't mean dying. If you do get shot, and you have the right mindset, odds are you won't even notice until the fight is over. I can cite countless modern civilian/law enforcement gunfights in which the participants, unless hit in a "computer chip"/disabling target, continued to fight and only succumbed to the injury after the fight. Again, the assumption that being shot will instantly incapacitate you. While this will be the case for those filled with fear, it is not the case for all. Every firearms course dealing with urban combat will teach that. Again, you are speaking from conjecture and fiction.

 

Yes, the best option is to prevent the other guy's gun from coming into play. Being aware you should see him go for a gun, stop him, and draw yours. This is the most common technique taught in defensive pistol schools.

 

Surrendering and "taking your chances" is not safe at all. You are placing your life, your well-being, the feelings of your loved ones in the hands of a CRIMINAL, a sociopath who cares nothing for society or you. You can choose to die willfully submitting to a criminal and then your loved ones will have to live with it. But, you would be wrong to do so. I have stated previously that there are 2.5 million individual cases of civilians using firearms to save their lives in the US against armed or otherwise aggressive criminals. These civilians were not killed. In over 87% of the 2.5 million reported cases the victim stated that if they did not have a gun, they would be dead. Every statistic and study conducted in clarity of research has clearly proven that forcible resistance, preferably with a firearm, is the SUREST, repeat THE SUREST way to survive with the least likeliness for injury. Again, you are assuming things based on conjecture and fiction.

 

If you cannot carry a gun, I am sorry. Carry another weapon. If the laws in your place don't allow it, contact your legislators and push to allow for the right to self-defense. The only excuse for such laws being is passed is not enough concerned people doing anything about it, but gripe.

 

MA.

 

p.s.

 

One more thing to add. ZR440 is correct. A firearms academy in conjunction with a law enforcement agency conducted a study of how, based on experience, "gang-bangers" shoot their pistols. They analyzed reported methods of handling and positioning used by thugs who use their guns on the street in gang related shootouts.

 

Their discovery: If a gang-banger is shooting at you at between 7-10 yards, odds are he won't hit you even if he unloads a magazine. That is with you standing perfectly still. At closer ranges their accuracy improves only slightly. The only time it is guaranteed that they will hit you is if the gun is pressed within a few inches of the target.

 

The reasons they deducted were: thugs have never been taught how to properly hold a pistol. The accuracy of a gun lies in proper placement of the hands, thumbs, how you squeeze the grip, etc. If anyone of these factors is not met the gun will not shoot straight. Thugs do not get training or regularly practice at a target range. Thugs carry guns that usually have a double action. If it is a revolver then each one of their shots will be skewed, unless single action is applied. If it is an auto-loader(read semi-automatic pistol) then the first shot is usually DA and the following shots SA. If they carry a striker-enabled pistol, i.e. glockB. Then they deal with a "half-cock" action. In any case without proper training it is very difficult to shoot a pistol accurately. Even in the very manageable 9mm.

 

Conclusions: thugs don't hit much. When they do it is a group conflict and more often than not it is not their intended target that is hit, but anyone of the opposing gang.

 

Merely having a gun pointed at does not mean you'll be killed instantly. I will cite an example. A storeowner is held at gun point, i.e. the barrel of the gun is only maybe a foot away, and money is demanded. The victim ducked to the side and grabbed a pistol. He fired on the criminal killing the criminal. The criminal did discharge his pistol, nicking the victim in the neck. The victim fully recoverd; the criminal died on the storefloor.

 

Something called "line of force" comes into play for defensive pistoling. The assailant still has to pull the trigger, i.e. decide to do so, send the signal to do so, and then do so, before you act. While you may not be able to dodge a bullet coming at you, you can certainly curb the reaction of the shooter. Police officers have been held at point-blank gun point and then drawn their pistols shooting the assailant before the thug could even register what happened. Having something unexpected happen can jam the thought process of many. A lot of criminals do not expect resistance. This doesn't mean every criminal, but you never know. Better safe than dead.

 

MA.

[Warp Spider]

If you get shot, odds are you are not a dead man. Statistically speaking getting shot doesn't mean dying. If you do get shot, and you have the right mindset, odds are you won't even notice until the fight is over.

 

That is true, but being shot will likely have at least some effect, slowing you down, stunning you momentarily, or just slightly upsetting your balance, that will make it much easier to hit you again.

Yes, the best option is to prevent the other guy's gun from coming into play. Being aware you should see him go for a gun, stop him, and draw yours. This is the most common technique taught in defensive pistol schools.

 

Again, as I said, this was not an option as the scenario presented involved the other person already having their gun out.

If you cannot carry a gun, I am sorry. Carry another weapon. If the laws in your place don't allow it, contact your legislators and push to allow for the right to self-defense. The only excuse for such laws being is passed is not enough concerned people doing anything about it, but gripe.

Similarly, not an option in this situation. It's not related to the laws, it wouldn't be much of a scenario if the question was, "What would you do if you were carrying a gun and someone who was trying to pick a fight wnt for their gun?"

Conclusions: thugs don't hit much. When they do it is a group conflict and more often than not it is not their intended target that is hit, but anyone of the opposing gang.

 

As I also mentioned, it is unreasonable to assume that the assailant does not know what they are doing. Chances are they've pulled a gun before, and quite possibly gunned down people before. It's only fair to assume that they have as much firearms experience as you have MA experience. They could be a gangster fresh from the ghetto, but they could also be a seasoned IPSC competitor. You definately take a chance in surrendering, but it's a better chance than your chance of getting away.

[Valithor]

"Armed resistance is the surest way of surviving a violent encounter"...

 

What a sad, sad, world...