Black Belt beat downs...

[sansoouser]

Let’s start with the real keys to survival on the street — mental and physical toughness. Martial arts, as commonly practiced in these United States, develop neither quality very well. The legendary “masters” of long-ago China could beat the tar out of their enemies less because of some secret skills than because they were stronger, fitter, and physi­cally tougher than their likely opponents. Likewise, an Okinawan karateka, who ate a decent diet and worked out with stone barbells was understandably an easy victor over a peasant who performed stoop labor and lived on the verge of starvation. And nowadays a professional boxer will make short work of the average working stiff. Mastery stems not from the “style” itself, but from the physical toughness built by constant practice.

 

Mental toughness also, in large part, results from practice. Any man who regularly meets and sur­passes the physical challenges that make up most of serious training concurrently builds mental tough­ness, the will to win that is the “secret” to winning a fight. But it’s harder to find that kind of toughness-building martial arts training outside of Korea, Ja­pan, or the Navy SEALS. Mr. Fly By Nite’s tae kwon do academy next door to Pizza Hut isn’t likely to teach toughness.

 

Body type also may create problems for Ameri­cans when they try Oriental martial arts. If your par­ents came from East Asia, then karate and the like may work for you: you’re likely to possess the small stature, short limbs, and suppleness that allow kicks to hit hard and fast. How many modern Americans, however, raised on Wheaties and McDonald’s bur­gers are built like the typical Japanese? Small, slight Asians emphasize kicking in their unarmed combat because fighting with their feet is the only way they can hit hard; having lived without chairs all their lives, those Asians have the hip flexibility to kick ef­fectively. Americans, on the other hand, sit in La-Z-Boy recliners, and so have a harder time kicking. For a tall and long-armed man, the straight punches of a boxer should serve him well. If someone’s built thick and heavy, wrestling might be a better choice. People should work with what they were born with. If a guy is built like a westerner, he should probably fight most effectively with a “style” from the West.

 

A final problem with modern martial arts for the streetfighter is the tendency to emphasize the art in­stead of the martial. The men who developed those “styles” centuries ago were warriors, and that’s why the military remains among the best sources for practical hand-to-hand training. Founders of the martial arts were also often killers: Chinese organ­ized crime still contains some of the best kung-fu masters alive. When warriors and killers trained, they trained to fight.

 

But nowadays the Self-Esteem Academy at every other strip mall is a place for little Jennifer and Kelly to spend a few hours until Mommy arrives in her minivan. Those kids — the typical martial arts stu­dent in modern America — may learn self-discipline, build confidence, and gain a certain amount of fitness on their ways to black belts.

 

But can they fight?

 

I’ve known a handful of black belts whom I wouldn’t attempt to tackle with anything less than a 12-gauge. I’ve also known plenty of others whom I could take with a teaspoon. Face facts: a black belt used to mean that the man wearing it was hell in any back alley brawl, but nowadays handicapped people, old ladies, and kids wear them.

 

But people who take ( most people!! ) just learn the patterns and get a belt, but they cannot fight so thus they get their false sence of self confidence. But someone who trains in a sport martial art, boxing, wrestling, judo, kick boxing, or whatever has practiced fighting and getting hit and taking pain. So who can really fight?

 

This is partly an article from http://www.loompanics.com/Articles/SportingLife.html the main idea is from here and if you want the whole article read it, it's pretty informative.

Edited July 12, 2003 by sansoouser

[sansoouser]

Now no one take any offense to this article, it's just my opnion so please take no offense none was given because both sport and self defense martials give you good skills. So once again to NO offense.

[aznkarateboi]

I highly advise that you read the Karate 101 section at this site: https://www.24fightingchickens.com . Though you probably do not practice Karate, you will discover that it states something along these lines: Martial arts will help you get more out of what you already have, it won't give you the ability to magically defeat someone who is superior in all attributes. Yes, I agree with you that strength and mentality are very important. But that doesn't mean that the skills are useless. Martial arts skills enhance what you already have.

 

PS. I don't think that the purpose of martial arts is to improve physical fitness. This should be done outside of training. I jog and do strengthening exercises outside of my martial arts school.

[monkeygirl]

But people who take ( most people!! ) just learn the patterns and get a belt, but they cannot fight so thus they get their false sence of self confidence. But someone who trains in a sport martial art, boxing, wrestling, judo, kick boxing, or whatever has practiced fighting and getting hit and taking pain. So who can really fight?

 

I would just like to remind you that even Sport MAs are not invincible. They too can be turned into McDojo styles, even though they don't really use forms...because forms aren't the deciding factor in a McDojo.

 

Second, styles that do use forms don't ruin your training forever. Many of them do train their students to be fighters.

 

Just wanted to clarify that

[telsun]

sansoouser I agree with you I average martial artist will be able to fight the average guy but if he comes up against something special then he is going to struggle. I was going to start a similar thread due to the fact that I am reading this book............

 

"In The Cage" a biography of Carl Merrit. Now this is one hard dude. His training consisted off street fighting, boxing and bouncing. That's it. Anyway he thought in prize fights. Not controlled matches but proper underground stuff, such as in Jean Claude Van Dams AWOL. Some of his fights ended in death!! It certainly is no kids game (although he started prize fighting when he was just 16) and really made me think about how ineffective my MA training would be against someone like this.

 

He was well built and had the mentality of a maniac. I couldn't bring myself to inflict the sort of damage he did on someone unless my life depended on it, although I guess in most cases his life was in danger. Although he is a thug you still seem to warm to him. He has morals and does not brag about his past. If you ever get the chance to read this book I would highly recommend it.

 

So with this in mind I agree that you will really benefit from being physically dominating and have the 'right' attitude. But if you are training in Martial Arts you will probably not be developing this kinda Mad man attitude.

 

There is definately a flip side to this argument and no doubt I will be chopping and changing my opinion as others have their say.

[karate_woman]

I’ve known a handful of black belts whom I wouldn’t attempt to tackle with anything less than a 12-gauge. I’ve also known plenty of others whom I could take with a teaspoon. Face facts: a black belt used to mean that the man wearing it was hell in any back alley brawl, but nowadays cripples, old ladies, and kids wear them.

 

But people who take ( most people!! ) just learn the patterns and get a belt, but they cannot fight so thus they get their false sence of self confidence. But someone who trains in a sport martial art, boxing, wrestling, judo, kick boxing, or whatever has practiced fighting and getting hit and taking pain. So who can really fight?

 

Forms, when taught properly (with bunkai) are a rather valuable part of training. We don't do forms to the exclusion of all else, however.

 

Are you saying that "[edit]" (as you termed them), [edit] and kids should be turned away at the door and prevented from training? The kid black belt issue has been flogged to death in a few other threads, so I'm not going there. All of the groups you mentioned, however, can greatly improve their ability to defend themselves. Of course, when making that statement I'm assuming that the black belt/training was obtained in a dojo that incorporates self-defense (with or without forms), and not a McDojo. These groups in particular would have the element of surprise behind them; by the time the attacker realizes they intend to defend themselves the attacker could very well be on the ground. False confidence is definitely a problem; certainly nobody (even a young, healthy male, btw) should be overconfident in their abilities, or underestimate their opponent.

 

I'd also like to point out again (though you addressed it in a dismissive, McDojo sort of way) that most people aren't training to go toe to toe with a trained fighter. That doesn't mean they are defenceless against such a person, however - especially with the element of surprise. As you've shown by your statements, potential victims aren't perceived to have self defense skills - if the victim can make use of the element of surprise to do some moves they've learned they have a much greater chance of survival - it sounds like you would deny people that chance just because they'll never be able to fight someone like Royce Gracie. If that is the measure of value in martial arts training there should be very few people training.

 

There were two recent instances in my city where women were grabbed in broad daylight. One woman pressed her car alarm button, which scared the attackers off (there were four), and the other woman's dog chased the guy away. It really goes to show how doing something - anything - improves your chances "on the street".

[Red J]

I understand the point that you are trying to make regarding mental and physical toughness. You make a valid argument for schools that teach MA on a hard-core level versus schools that take a lighter approach. However, the generalities and stereotypes that you use are glaring, crude, condescending, and offensive. I find it amusing that you don’t want anyone to take offense to your opinion. That is very hard when you refer to people that are physically challenged as “cripples”. Perhaps when you present your opinions you could do it in a way that does not put others down. Edited July 29, 2003 by Red J

[StoneSkin]

sansoouser

 

I completely agree with you.

 

This is why I dislike the idea of having belts for ranking. Attaining a black belt in a martial art used to be quite an impressive thing. Now it has little meaning to me.

 

Blackbelt used to have such a title, people would be like wow your a black belt.

 

Itd be nice to see an instructor give everyone a blackbelt when they started and did the whole belt thing in reverse once youve trained hard for 10 years you can have a white belt or no belt at all.

[WC-Strayder]

Like they say: If you deserve a black belt you do not need one!. To bad it is so many people who has one, but don't deserve one!. Personally I don't give a darn about belts. It is there just to se where I stand in my training, nothing else. It covers only tre inches of your ass anyway, the rest you have to cover for yourself and to bad for you if you train and get a belt in a McDojo......

 

It will never be fashion with black karate belts on a party anyway, so why bother??...

[sansoouser]

Sorry, it has been brought to my attention that some people may have been offened. I myself I would consider partly crippled, I have a problem with my toe joints and my feet won't bend much whihc limits me from doing things, but I can still throw down one heck of a beat down