ValeTudo Posted July 11, 2003 Posted July 11, 2003 I wasn't talking about changing your mind. I was talking about what is enough to convince most of the WC students to stay confident in their art. If you remain doubtful, that's not their problem. Fair enough. I'll change my question. If two grandmasters of Wing Chun do not use their technique in a real fight, and flail around like school yard children. If Wing Chun has not fared well in NHB challenge matches. Why would anyone be confident in their abilities to defend themselves with Wing Chun? Wing Chun folks, please answer.
ValeTudo Posted July 11, 2003 Posted July 11, 2003 Maybe the behaviour of two reprehensible egomaniacs has no bearing on nthe use of Wing Chun! If these two egomaniacs are grandmasters of Wing Chun, it certainly does have a bearing on the use of Wing Chun! Their personal attributes (ego) have nothing to do with their fighting ability. If they are the most advanced of a particular style, yet use none of that style in an actual fight, it says a lot about the style.
Kirves Posted July 11, 2003 Posted July 11, 2003 If two grandmasters of Wing Chun Whoa! Time-out! Grandmasters? The fight happened a long time ago and Emin was a young punk back then! He actually went there to defend his Grandmaster's honour! He went there to beat up a guy who talked trash about his Grandmaster. That's it. Another thing. I've seen the video several times. Actually I see quite a bit of Wing Chun in it. First of all, as is well known, the camera didn't start rolling until way into the fight. It missed most of the standup stuff. Then they fell to the ground, but if you look up close, you see Emin trapping Cheung's hands and raining elbows on him. That is Wing Chun. WC sparring looks pretty sloppy because of how it works. Your hands must keep contact with the opponents hands at all times after initial contact and you bend around his arms and rain slappy strikes all round. When not choreographed, it kinda looks like schoolyard kids slapping around sloppily. Especially to an eye that is used to people not sticking their hands together. Anyways, Emin has said it in several interviews that he regrets the incident. He feels he was tricked by his Grandmaster and superiors into getting his young hands dirty when his superiors didn't have the guts to handle the issue themselves or the sensibility to let it go.
ValeTudo Posted July 11, 2003 Posted July 11, 2003 Whoa! Time-out! Grandmasters? The fight happened a long time ago and Emin was a young punk back then! He actually went there to defend his Grandmaster's honour! He went there to beat up a guy who talked trash about his Grandmaster. That's it. William Cheung is the Grandmaster of traditional Wing Chun. You can read that here: http://www.cheungswingchun.com/Profile.html "He has been called the Masters' Master; he was considered by Bruce Lee to be the "ultimate fighter": William Cheuk Hing Cheung was the sole inheritor of the Traditional Wing Chun Kung Fu system, and was the person responsible for introducing Bruce Lee to Wing Chun Kung Fu." Emin Boztepe is a representative of Wing Tsun. A Dai-Sifu at the time of this fight. He was sent (in your own words) to represent his grandmaster. Another thing. I've seen the video several times. Actually I see quite a bit of Wing Chun in it. First of all, as is well known, the camera didn't start rolling until way into the fight. It missed most of the standup stuff. Then they fell to the ground, but if you look up close, you see Emin trapping Cheung's hands and raining elbows on him. That is Wing Chun. WC sparring looks pretty sloppy because of how it works. Your hands must keep contact with the opponents hands at all times after initial contact and you bend around his arms and rain slappy strikes all round. When not choreographed, it kinda looks like schoolyard kids slapping around sloppily. Especially to an eye that is used to people not sticking their hands together. Interesting. For those who want to see the fight. You can find it here: http://www.bullshido.com/dl_showall.asp?cat_id=54&parent_id=14&parent_name=Videos&sub_name=Misc%2E+Videos They certainly do a lot of damage with these "Wing Chun techniques" don't they?! Either way, I'm not sure where you see sticky hands and/or elbows throughout the entire fight. There are no elbows, and about 5 punches in this entire fight. Cheung goes for a headlock, gets tripped by Boztepe. Boztepe gets the top position, throws a few inneffective punches. Cheung wrestles himself out. That's it. Looks like some school girls fighting! Anyways, Emin has said it in several interviews that he regrets the incident. He feels he was tricked by his Grandmaster and superiors into getting his young hands dirty when his superiors didn't have the guts to handle the issue themselves or the sensibility to let it go. I could care less about the politics behind this incident. If two martial artists want to fight, I think they should fight! It's the best way to test your skills. My problem here is that these two highly advanced WC martial artists fight like schoolgirls when put to the test.
WC-Strayder Posted July 11, 2003 Posted July 11, 2003 Oh, god, we really need heroes in this world, don't we ....... I gladly fight like a school girl if thats what it takes to keep me alive!. I have no problem with that. Hell, I do anything to be alive, I have only one life and is highly depending on it just to be here and have no interest in fighting for sport just to prove that. If my wing chun really works I hope I never find out, coz I really don't know the outcome of a fight!. In a life and dead matter you can not trust anything and sometimes it's just luck thats pulls you thru a fight. I know, coz I had a few when I was younger and I'm just lucky to be alive. What I do not understand is that some of you think you will win a street fight just because you fight in a ring. Hows that?. It's a lot of factors in a fight and prediction of the outcome is not one of them, believe me!. We spar. Not for competition or in a ring, but we still spar as close to the reallity as it's posible to come and I have a lot of bruces and frog lipps to prove for it. Some times we even where gloves and teeth protection and really "finds it out" the hard way what works and what not, but I personally knows it will work in a fight and that is enough for me. I have nothing to prove for others, I'm to old for that. The WC man on the video was no well prepared fighter, even I, with only a year with Wing Chun can see that. Looks like he was going for it to me, but to be honest with you, I really don't care!. Do your training well and do not forget the biggest thing in life, to be a good human being. If the first lesson was a failure, then you know that skydiving isn't for you!
Beer-monster Posted July 11, 2003 Posted July 11, 2003 Well said! Mind, body and fist. Its all a man truly needs.
Kirves Posted July 12, 2003 Posted July 12, 2003 William Cheung is the Grandmaster of traditional Wing Chun. You can read that here: http://www.cheungswingchun.com/Profile.html Oh yes, I know. And Ashida Kim is the Grandmaster of Koga-ryu Ninjitsu, you can read that here: http://www.ashidakim.com/ Your link went straight to Cheung's own website, of course he will say such things in there. Go ask someone who trained under Yip Man, but hasn't joined Cheung's TWC organization and you get differing opinions. And by the way, it is not "traditional Wing Chun", it is "Traditional Wing Chun" - see the capitalization. TWC is a trademark of Cheung's organization. So in effect, he really is the Grandmaster of his own organization. But he was never elected to such a status in the Wing Chun family by his teacher, the previous Grandmaster of his branch (Yip Man). Usually it is the Grandmaster who decides who will succeed him as the next one. Yip Man chose another disciple to be the next GM and this p*ss*d Cheung off, so he founded his TWC organization and labelled himself Grandmaster.
Beer-monster Posted July 12, 2003 Posted July 12, 2003 Who did Yip Man choose, I never was sure. Was it Ip Chun? Mind, body and fist. Its all a man truly needs.
Kirves Posted July 12, 2003 Posted July 12, 2003 Was it Ip Chun? Nope. If I remember correcly (I don't study WC so I am not that interested) he chose Leung Ting, his last "closed-door" student. But someone can correct me if I remember wrong.
Beer-monster Posted July 12, 2003 Posted July 12, 2003 Thtas Boztepe's old master. But lots of people cliam Grandmastership, and their are several WC branches. Mind, body and fist. Its all a man truly needs.
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