REAL Wing Chun vs Wrestling video.

[ValeTudo]

It looks like we're arguing about 2 completely separate things here. I'm responding to WC Strayder's assertion that WC may not work in the ring, but it works in the streets.

 

If you don't take WC for self-defense, then that's fine! I'm not bashing the art at all. I'm saying that arguing WC is effective in the streets, but not in the ring is a cop-out.

 

There is nothing that WC teaches that would have changed the outcome of that particular fight. The WC practitioner was pretty much free to do whatever he wanted, but didn't.

 

So it's silly to argue that on "the streets" the fight would have been different.

 

I think that shows a blind faith in the system that is flawed. I'm merely asking why someone would assume that, although WC doesn't work in the ring, it works in the streets.

 

As far as WC practitioners in the UFC. To be honest, I'm not certain. I know Asbel Cancio (the guy in this fight) was Wing Tsun. But, off the top of my head, I can't remember others.

 

I'm not saying that WC is an ineffective and/or bad art. I'm saying that the argument that WC is ineffective in the ring, but effective on the streets is a bad argument.

[Kirves]

Okay. The way I understand it, the claim that it works for the street means it works against mostly untrained, or at most poorly trained opponents. When it is said it doesn't work so well in the ring, it means it is not so good against a professional MMA fighter.

 

(You do know, the difference between an untrained thug and a pro MMArtist, don't you? The untrained street thug attacks with single attacks instead of blitz combos, he attacks with silly things like haymakers or soccer kicks, pushes/shoves or simple headlocks with no idea how to continue or counter move. The trained MMA fighter does the exact opposite. Generally the WC people train with the former, not the latter opponent in mind.)

 

Perhaps WC could work in the ring too if trained properly but we have seen so few examples that the jury is still out. One or two incidents are too few to judge the whole art by. The fact that the art is marketed as a self defence art, makes in unlikely that many "pro NHB fighter wannabes" will start with WC anyway soon, so it may take some time till we see if it can work in the ring or not.

[TJS]

No out is doubting WC works against Joe avg..but this video exposes what happens when you fight a skilled wrestler...

 

Royce Was bitten in UFC 1 ..and for his efforts Gerard got an extra nasty rear naked choke.

 

if you bite or eye gouged someone and won you still go the win..you just had to pay them $1,000

[ValeTudo]

Well, we generally agree. If people want to train only to fight untrained fighters, more power to them. Like I said, I'm not in MMA for self-defense/beating up drunks purposes. I like to fight, so I do MMA.

 

The only thing I'm confused on is how WC people know that WC is great for self-defense - if they've never seen it be effective. I know that in a one-on-one fight BJJ is largely effective because it's been tested. (See: Gracies In Action, UFC, Pride, etc..) This doesn't meant that it will always win out, but I'm playing the odds. WC I've never seen work, so I'm not sure how people can be sure that it does. Until someone can show me something...anything.. I'll remain respectfully doubtful.

 

Is BJJ effective against multiple opponents/weapons? I don't know. Never seen it tried. Never seen WC tried either.

 

But I don't really worry about those situations! I try my best to train my running ability!

[ValeTudo]

For those still interested... This site lists all of the fighters and their styles and records that have competed in the UFC.

 

http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Track/3595/ufcstats.html

 

There are three Wing Chun folks that I see

 

Scott Baker, 0-1

 

Asbel Cancio, 0-1

 

Dave Levicki, 0-1

 

Those are the only ones I see.

[Beer-monster]

IMO the guy lost because he did not expect the shoot and was unprepared for it. This is probably the reason most stand up fighters lost so quickly in the early UFCs, because then such contest was new and the shoot was completed unexpected to the Stand up fighter.

 

That said, I watched some Prides and UFC recently and the stand up fighter are starting to learn. Some of the wiser one are beginning to either avoid or sprawl with the shoot. But I think the more recent rules to favour the grappler. I can explain this in more detail later if required, but I think the old rules (though the new are justified) were fairer to a range of styles.

 

Also Kirves is right, WC and other arts dont train for the shoot or such tactics because for self defence is really not neccessary. Vale Tudo and other arts include this training because of the sport element, but many styles do not compete this way or wish to (maybe they are discouraged from early losses and the so-called grapplers game).

 

So if a WC or other fighter wanted to compete he would have to learn these things elsewhere. Thus cross-training. However if he learnt these things and used them efgectively, would he still be standup or would he have become a grappler. That is the question.

[TJS]

IMO the guy lost because he did not expect the shoot

 

well he knew he was fighing a wrestler..why would he not..thats what every wrestler did in ever ufc fight before that.

and was unprepared for it

 

I agree there..he could not defend a basic shoot.

This is probably the reason most stand up fighters lost so quickly in the early UFCs, because then such contest was new and the shoot was completed unexpected to the Stand up fighter.

 

not true...Every single fighter Royce Gracie fough knew exactly what his intention were..but no one was able to stop him.

WC and other arts dont train for the shoot or such tactics because for self defence is really not neccessary

 

how many highschool/college wrestlers are there out there? ALOT...wrestling is huge in the US..to not adress it is a tactical mistake...

[Kirves]

The only thing I'm confused on is how WC people know that WC is great for self-defense - if they've never seen it be effective.

 

Most students are quite satisfied with the results they see at the WC school. They first go there and lose to everyone. Then they learn and start getting a few strikes in. Then a new batch of beginners come in and they notice they can beat the crap out of them. So they feel confident from their personal experience at the school. When you train for 10 years, you get to spar against dozens of new batches of untrained average joes and you see how good you become during the years. You also see how difficult it remains to beat those ahead of you. I find it easy to understand how someone is satisfied with just that confidence.

Edited July 10, 2003 by Kirves

[Kirves]

how many highschool/college wrestlers are there out there? ALOT...wrestling is huge in the US..to not adress it is a tactical mistake...

 

Highschool/college wrestling may be huge in the US but it is non-existent where I come from. I have never even heard of it outside the MA forums on the Internet. I don't even remember ever seeing it mentioned in any American movie or tv-serie I've seen. I have seen some Highschool/college football players, but that too is something we don't do here (in my language, your football game is actually referred to as "American Football" and when you say "Football" in here, it is always understood without exceptions as "Soccer"). We don't have any combat sports in school. The only place where "everyone" learns any fighting is the military service (mandatory to all males here) and there you are taught some quick&dirty stand-up fighting tactics.

[Beer-monster]

What I meant was in the early days of the UFC most fighters faoght people from similar styles. Just coz there is high school/wrestling doesn't mean that everyone knows its tactics. How many people but fans of wrestling, wrestlers and their families watch the matches. Why would your typical WC or stand up fighter want to watch it.

 

These days the shoot is expected from grapplers because it has been exposed on the UFC. Before most people stuck to their own styles and the common view of wrestling involved Hulk Hogan.

 

The point I was trying to make in the first UFCs people wasnt quite sure what to expect from any style because they stuck to their own. Recently you've scene good standup fighter last longer against shoots and takedowns coz they expect it and are prepared. The results show that I'm just offering an explanation that is fair and unbiased to any style. Just my opinion.

 

That said on a Pride contest I saw a match between two grapplers that hardly went to the floor, it was all stand up. A Japanese shootfighter tried using a fence and thus disabled his own shoot attempts, then got his butt handed to him because his opponent had cross trained in Muay Thai. Everyone makes mistakes, and unexpected things happen.