Seeking advice about schools

[Cheezewiz]

I found this forum, because a writer at Site-Point, Patrick O'Keefe, listed it in his web sites. It was a lucky find because I am unsure what to do about my daughter's Karate education. I have been a long time www forum participant and realize the large amount of wisdom to be found in bb sites. I am hoping to find a bit of help here.

 

My daughter is 9 years old, and has been taking Karate lessons at Karate America for 5 months. She loves it, but I am somewhat suspicious of the place. First, I must say, there is much to praise. I particularly like the way they require respect and good behavior, and that they actually discuss concepts like right and wrong, commitment and honor. These are ideas which have been banished from American schools since I was a student in the 50s & 60s. However, I am concerned about the actual quality of the martial arts training she is getting and their business practices and prices. I have no experience to judge them against and no idea what their reputation is. We ended up there, because they offered free after school introductory lessons at her school, and she wanted to join.

 

The first 6 months is about up. We had to sign a contract which was $600 for the 6 months and that included a free uniform and a 20% discount for paying up front. Now, they are telling us she is really talented and "invited" her to join the Black Belt Team, which is the only option to continue there, and it costs $4500 (US) for a 30 month program. (which guarantees a Black Belt and we cannot get the money back if she quits or we don't like the instruction.) This somehow does not compute. I thought belts had to be earned by attaining a given level of skill. If a Black Belt signifies, among other things, an instructor's rating in Karate, I find it hard to believe that a 9 year old could reach that level in 3 years of 2 half hour lessons a week. I have noticed that I don't see any 12 year old instructors working there. This has set off my scam alarm big time.

 

A second thing I have noticed is that there doesn't seem to be a strong correllation between a student's belt and how good they appear to be. My daughter gets promoted to the next belt when she has attended a set number of classes. The same is true of other students wether or not they are doing better or worse than her. I take her to classes and sit and watch each one, so I have sat through about 40 lessons so far, and have spent my time observing. I seldom see anything other than follow the leader class movement drills, and very little effort is put into correcting students who are doing a poor jodb of following along.

 

My daughter loves Karate America and says she wants to earn her Black Belt. I am really skeptical about the place and have delayed signing the contract. I need to find out what is common practice at reputable places, what KA's reputation is, and would love suggestions as to what I should expect in terms of cost and contracts. I also would love to know what a normal progression to Black Belt would take in terms of time for an athletic and smart hard working student her age. I have promised her she can get a Black Belt if she is willing to work for it, but I need to make the right decision about schools.

 

I will thank everyone in advance for any help or wisdom they are willing to provide.

 

Mike

 

mgkellner@charter.net

[Martial_Artist]

Hi Mike,

 

To me it doesn't sound like a quality martial arts school. Black belts shouldn't be bought for a non-negotiable contract and $4500.

 

It sounds like what we call a McDojo. That is a school that only seeks financial gain at the expense of the ill-experienced, or ill-informed.

 

Any school that doesn't promote based on individual achievement is not a very good school. Compulsory attendance in exchange for rank is a good indication that the school is only interested in pleasing the parents or students to keep them attending by giving them higher rank for attendance.

 

A black belt should only be given to a student that has demonstrated the mental maturity, the physical ability, and technical knowledge that comes with time. It isn't something that should come quickly, or to the too young, especially if it is to have meaning.

 

Hope my advice helps.

 

I apologize for not being able to answer some of your other questions. I don't really advocate for any single style or school. And as for pricing, that is really variable. Some good schools might seem to charge much, but you get quality. And, as you are experiencing, some poor schools charge much and you don't get quality.

 

There are people on this forum that have much more knowledge concerning modern schools than I, and I hope some will be able to answer your other questions.

 

MA.

[TJS]

MCDOJO

[Bart the Lover]

Hi Mike.

 

Please, please, don't give this club any more money!

 

It's wonderful that your daughter wants to participate in martial arts,

 

and that you are so supportive of her. I'm amazed that many parents

 

still think martial arts are appropriate for boys only.

 

I agree with Martial_Artist's excellent points. I would like to point out that

 

the fee you paid isn't in itself outrageous. It depends on the size of the

 

club, location (city overheads clearly more expensive than a village hall),

 

and how many classes are on offer. If I read your post correctly, your

 

daughter attends two half hour classes a week. By my calculation, this

 

works out at twenty-three dollars an hour. Eeek! By way of comparison,

 

I pay approximately (it's approximate because I pay a set amount a

 

month for unlimited classes) three dollars per hour for six to eight hours

 

a week. I am also an adult. And there are weights and heavy bags I can

 

use. So even if you were completely satisfied with the tuition, this would

 

be a very poor deal.

 

The existence of a contract is not a problem in my view. Some clubs

 

don't have them; some have three monthly, or yearly contracts. Contracts

 

help clubs plan finances and provide stability. This is important in a

 

professional club with full-time staff. The contract you were asked to

 

sign sounds alarming, though. An adult can be expected to plan a year

 

ahead, but not two and a half years ahead. To expect a child to do this

 

is ridiculous. I'm sorry I can't comment on Karate America specifically,

 

as I am not American.

 

Quote:

 

A second thing I have noticed is that there doesn't seem to be a strong

 

correllation between a student's belt and how good they appear to be.

 

There will always be variation between students. Broadly, a black belt is

 

quicker, with more control, and knows more techniques than the lower

 

ranks. However, the range within ranks can be quite considerable. I

 

have encountered people whose performance led me to believe they were

 

higher or lower ranked than they actually are (you can't tell by looking

 

at my club). Again, in itself this isn't something to worry about. Taking

 

your observations into consideration--automatic promotion, lack of

 

feedback from instructors, guaranteed black belt--it is something to worry

 

about. If no-one fails, it isn't a true test.

 

The progression to black belt: it all depends. Sorry for such a nebulous

 

answer! The are too many factors involved to give a definite answer.

 

Certainly, willingness to work hard and tenacity will help your daughter

 

achieve her goal. Most people who start martial arts drop out. This is

 

partly why there are so few black belts. The ability to attend classes when

 

things are hard is half the battle. This is one of the benefits of martial arts

 

for children, I think. On a cautionary note, I would like to suggest that

 

perhaps venerating the aquisition of a black belt maybe isn't a terribly

 

good idea. There is a risk that once your daughter has her black belt, her

 

interest wanes. The challenge has gone. Perhaps you could emphasise

 

other aspects of training to her, to minimize this risk. After all, once you

 

stop training, you lose your skills.

 

On a final note, I would like to say that the most worrying thing about

 

these clubs is that they give their members a false sense of confidence.

 

This could even be dangerous, if it leads your daughter to believe she

 

can take care of herself when she cannot. Sorry if this sounds alarmist.

 

I don't want to scare you.

 

In short: please don't go back to this club. I'm sure you'll find good

 

lessons for your daughter. Take your time choosing. Visit clubs, ask

 

questions, watch classes and ask to see credentials if they are not on the

 

walls. Let us know what you decide.

 

I hope my post has been of help to you.

 

If you have any questions relating to my post, feel free send me a

 

personal message.

 

Good luck!

 

Regards,

 

Bart the Lover

[Kirves]

You are being given good advice here. Take heed.

 

The club seems to be what is known around martial arts circles a "McDojo", like McDonalds, they sell bad quality product with a high price.

 

The price overall seems pretty high, but in itself isn't a red flag yet, just a yellow one. Sometimes it is that expensive if you want top quality, but, but, not like this - no way. But the long-term contract and the promise of a black belt - there's the red flag.

 

Never sign a long term contract like that. Ever. Honest schools have no need to do that kind of rip-off/scam deals. And they can't promise a belt rank like that. Or yes they can, but they can't surely guarantee that it was deserved based on skill, so they only promise a rank, not skill.

 

Go elsewhere, ask prices and deals, shop around.

[SBN Doug]

Well, I'm probably going to shock the heck out of some people, but I'm not going to jump on the "drop 'em" train this time. And it is entirely because of the age of your daughter.

 

My daughter started training with me at about 7. She joined the kids class at my same dojang and liked it a lot. The fact that your daughter is excited about it, and wants to keep going is a major fact to calculate in.

 

Am I saying this place is a good dojo, and you're overreacting? NO

 

What I'm saying is that your daughter is not going to be an experience fighter at 11 no matter where she gets her black belt. And, BB does not automatically qualify you as an instructor (to answer your other question). In my opinion, if you can keep her enthusiasm while switching schools, then do it. If she says that this is the only place she wants to learn, then let her (she'll still get the basics), and slowly work toward getting her to join a better school in the future.

 

Side note: Have you observed the adult classes? Sometimes the kids class gets watered down, because most parents don't want their kids getting hurt, or they get offended if their child doesn't promote. Watch an adult class, and see if it's any better. She can move up to that at the right age.

 

For pricing, I think the $4,500 is wierd. Usually the price is reduced for buying a plan like that. The $100 per month you're paying now should only be $3,000 after 30 months. I'd keep paying the short term ones. She'll get a black belt sooner or later, and this leaves her the oportunity to loose interest in this school later, without you loosing the money.

 

So, my advice:

 

If she'll still be excited if you change schools, then change.

 

If she only want to study there, then stick to the low risk, shorter term payments.

 

Hope this helps.

[granmasterchen]

mcdojo, my advise is run and hide, and if possible smack the instructors that are trying to steal your money, or you can give me their information and i can see what i can do about getting them investigated on their credentials and the authentisity of them, which may result in their school being shut down. I encourage you to look into some other schools in your area, your daughter may find another school that she likes, where she can actually learn something and earn a black belt, or if she wants a black belt real bad, just go to ebay, you can find anything there and i am sure that it will save you money

[delta1]

Sir, you are wise to question the practices of this school. While respect for self and others is an important part of martial arts, the physical and fighting training is also important. As was already pointed out, a false sense of security and poor skills can get someone hurt. Most serious schools will only give a junior ranking to a child your daughters age, and she'd have to earn that ranking based on skills, not time and money spent.

 

The price you are paying is extremely high. Most schools in my state charge between $30.00 and $60.00 per month, and no contracts. Class time is usually 1-3 hrs, 2-3 times a week. And that is for good instruction, not the McDojo's. Contracts, especially the long term ones, are a marketing scam. I could see 3 months, maybe 6 if there was a substantial discount and the prices weren't already jacked up. But what you describe here is unethical. Ask if they can truly teach respect while operating such a scam on their students.

 

As for guaranteed rank, that is like sending your child to a music school that guarantees she'll be able to play with the New York Symphony in 3 yrs. Most adults take 5 yrs or more to reach 1st Black in the serious schools I'm familiar with. In fact, if you get right down to it, most people never get their Blk. To guarantee a child this rank in a short time (but for a large amount of money) is, again, a scam. You've called it right.

 

I'm sure your daughter loves it at Karate America. That is probably the only thing they are good at is keeping the kids happy so they'll badger the parents into signing up. But what mind games are they using, what psychological ploys? And what will the effect of these be on a young, impressionable child?

 

Nothing about this school sounds good to me. I'd leave and find a better school.

[battousai16]

well, you asked about KA's reputation, so here goes. i don't know where you live, but 'round here in WI, Karate America is the martial arts equivilant to McDonalds. In fact, when i heard the definition of McDojo, i immediatly thought "Karate America". They ask for rediculous amounts of money, give you a uniform (which is usually fairly hideous, but that's just my opinion. metallic american flag print!?! ), teach you a bunch of flashy stuff and organize skits for demonstraitions, and that's about it. it's less a martial arts school and more a demo team for those who don't know martial arts. to add to the mcdonalds status, 'round here they're all over. there's one in about every city in my county, two in some. at one point there was a strip mall with to KA dojos in it. and, to add insult to injury, i believe it's the founder but i'm not sure, it may only be the head guy in WI, but his children goto my dojang. not many places around here respect Karate America, and there practitioners usually come out arrogant and impolite. however, there is one thing to there credit, and it's a particular large thing, especially for your daughter: the people involved with KA absolutely love it. they have a lot of fun, and truely enjoy going. however, there are plenty of other schools that do this, and i'm not sure that i would go to KA just for that reason.

[CheekyMusician]

I understand that your kid loves it there, but like the others have said, this place is a McDojo and you should try to get your daughter to a better dojo.

 

I must admit, here in Scotland commercial McDojo's aren't common. Most of the martial arts clubs in this area train in a sports hall or the YMCA and only charge a small price for tuition. Sometimes the teaching can be a bit suspect, but at least the clubs aren't in it just for the money.

 

Try and convince your daughter to join another club, and if she refuses try to "butter her up" at bit by saying that you think she's very talented and that a new club would make her even better. That would maybe work in the end, but I wouldn't advise you to keep her in the club she's in right now. If you just pay the money, it'll be encouraging clubs like this to continue dragging down the name of their art for some money, and your daughter probably wont even be learning as much as she could elsewhere.