"Karate not for fighting other styles"

[Kirves]

I don't have a library with me at the moment, but generally my info comes from books of such karate researchers as McCarthy, Bishop, Jalamo (who hasn't written in English), Nagamine and so on.

[Kirves]

I would hate to rely on my Opponet being a drunked no skill bum. sounds like a bad philosophy to me..prepare for the worst and the rest will be easy.

 

As I said, times change. Back then they prepared for what they encountered. Nowadays the karateka do the same: prepare for what they encounter, and nowadays they encounter other martial artists, so they have modernized their methods. What's the problem with that? All arts better do that or they wither into meaningless collections of useless techniques. It is called evolving.

[Shotokan_Fighter]

TJS wrote

Have you ever seen the video if the Shotokan Blackbelt "holding his own" against a BJJ stylist?

 

no i havnt where can i see it?? and why do ppl think that BJJ is so good what id the fight dosent go to the ground, the BJJ is worthless if a fight dosent go to the ground. but i know most fights do. but where is that shotokan vs BJJ?

[Kirves]

There's at least one "Shotokan vs. BJJ" clip on the Bullshido.com videoarchive. But as usual, it is one man against one man. There isn't really much to see there, the karateka goes down and gets his arm nearly or thoroughly broken.

[TJS]

http://www.bullshido.us/dl_goto.asp?id=64

 

Here is the video. notice how he even tries to eye gouge him a few times..puting his arm right in place for a vicious arm bar

 

oh and top of that he tries a pressure point and it's on a conctere floor..that eliminates just about every common excuse.

 

Kirves I wasant commenting on your post about the trained fighter thing, I was talking about Shotokans comment.

 

 

why do ppl think that BJJ is so good what id the fight dosent go to the ground, the BJJ is worthless if a fight dosent go to the ground

 

But as usual, it is one man against one man

 

should they put two karate guys against him or what?

 

BJJ is not good against multiple attacker and it has never claimed ot be..most schools claim to be able to beat multiple attackers when they dont do a very good job against one.

 

Shotokan karate_o

 

The problem with that is that if a Good grappler wants you on the ground thats where you will go. the opposite is not usually true..As in a striker has alot more trouble keeping things on his feet..thats just how it is.

[Beer-monster]

Its all true. The secrets of old karate are kept in the kata. Most of the bunkai (which include throws, joint lock chokes and some rudimentary ground fighting) of the kata are designed to defend against such pushes, grabs and haymakers expected by an untrained fighter.

 

However old karate did include hook punches and uppercuts (it is the modern styles such as Wado-ryu and Shotokan that ignore the hooks in basic traing (although Kirves makes it sound that this is not so in Kyokoshin , is that true?).

 

The reason for this is that the fundamental principle in karate defence is what in our dojo we call one-hit/one-kill. Now do not misunderstand me this is not some secret flick 'em and they, die dim mak garbage. It simply means that each technique aims to end the fight in that one move (whether it be a single punch or a combination). A tried and tested knowckout technique which is popular amongst todays modern bouncers and doormen, is the rear hook to the jaw. Whack 'em hard and clean there and its lights out (the brain gets rattled in the head and the jaw bone is driven in to the nerves). Trust me it works. And so such techniques are contained in the kata (Pinan Godan for one in the first 3 moves).

 

However such kata techniques are less likely to work against a trained fighter (unless you can surprise them or have good timing) without modification. But the core techniques of karate the kicks and punches will work (as Kyokushin well know) but not as they do in kata, or as they are trained in lines. The problem with karate is that the style that the techniques are performed are well know, and often expected by a clever fighter.

 

I applaud styles such as Kyokushin that has adapted to match with the other styles through hard training. Maybe the rest of the Karate-do styles will learn soon.

 

However, why do we need to? The only real reason to learn how to fight and hold your own against trained opponents is for competitions like K-1 and UFC. But if these do not intrest you, then karate as it stand is fine (provided you understand you kata).

 

Unfortunately this means swallowing our pride when we watch more and more karateka get pummeled by grapplers and have them wave it in our faces.

[Shotokan_Fighter]

id like to spar against a BJJ and see how good they really are this is shotokan_karate0 but i changed my username to shotokan_figher. i wish we had some more MA schools around here than TKD

[Shotokan_Fighter]

i cant get that video to work do i need that winzip in order for that vidoe to work??

[TJS]

i cant get that video to work do i need that winzip in order for that vidoe to work??

 

Not sure..

[Kirves]

it is the modern styles such as Wado-ryu and Shotokan that ignore the hooks in basic traing (although Kirves makes it sound that this is not so in Kyokoshin , is that true?).

 

Actually, I'm not sure. In my school, we train all the boxing techniques, but I am not quite sure if they are "required material" in Kyokushin or a choice made by the instructor. I do know that later (brown and black belts) Kyokushin focuses a lot on circular techniques insted of strickt linear ones we begin with.

However such kata techniques are less likely to work against a trained fighter

 

And part of the reason for this is the simple fact that trained fighters aren't going to attack you with any of the techniques we have counters in the kata for. You know... No thaiboxer or bjj:ka in a ring starts poking your chest, or grab your lapels and yell threats in your face, or push you around, or grab your wrist and start pulling you somewhere. These are all common barroom brawl/street figh attacks, but quite rare in any other ring but WWE.

But the core techniques of karate the kicks and punches will work

 

Exactly, if they are trained realistically (meaning: don't cling to tradition too tightly, old methods are useful, but adopt other methods too, evolution is the key).

However, why do we need to? The only real reason to learn how to fight and hold your own against trained opponents is for competitions like K-1 and UFC. But if these do not intrest you, then karate as it stand is fine (provided you understand you kata).

 

Also a good point. Some people just love to train karate of the old times. Other people love to train modernized stuff. Some love to train with K1 rules. As long as you enjoy it, no problem.

Unfortunately this means swallowing our pride when we watch more and more karateka get pummeled by grapplers and have them wave it in our faces.

 

Even great grapplers (like the Gracies) say over and over again, that they don't like going to ground in a street fight.

 

One thing I must say: I think groundfighting skill is the best self defence method for women. Most attacks against women are rapes or similar situations where grappling skills are the best defence.