Why do Traditional Martial Arts suck?

[aznkarateboi]

Many threads are posted on this forum saying that Traditional Martial Arts, such as Karate, are useless for self defense. I have noticed that most of the reasoning is one of the two: 1) They use forms. 2) They are traditional and therefore outmoded. Anyone care to provide more specific details on why these arts are "useless"? Edited June 25, 2003 by aznkarateboi

[broomhilda000]

Ok, first off the katas...

 

They are useless in a fight but I guess they train you somehow. Maybe for excersise, I am no karate expert though, but if you train in full contact karate you should be fairly effective, I mean karate will help you but if you don't spar full out then how will you know what works and what doesn't?

 

I take judo and we spar full out but there are no strikes, just throws, wrestling, chokes, armbars and such.

[Kirves]

Many people regard kata as useless, because they don't understand them. And they're not to blame, it is the incorrect instruction that is given in way over half of available karate schools on the matter of kata. Originally kata was a textbook. It is the book on self-defence tactics that was written by a master. But back then writing, publishing and distributing books wasnt' as easy as today, so they wrote kata instead. The point remains, kata is to be read like a book on self defence methods. You don't buy such a book, read it and then think you can apply the methods. Of course, as common sense dictates, you use the book only as a source, and you actually train the methods with live people. That is what kata is for: in the old days, the mere saying "I train kata" meaned you read the kata (=solo form practice), practiced it (=kata bunkai kumite) and applied it (=kumite). But today, people have gotten it mixed up and think "kata training" just means the solo practice. It is like you read a book on techniques but never actually train them or apply them. You can't use them that way. Kata is only good, if you read it, practice it and apply it. The last two bits are done with live people who, in the last bit are resisting opponents. Also, many people can't even read. There are lots of misconceptions about kata, where some see a block, another one sees a takedown and someone sees a superninja-dimmak-deathtouch technique... So, first you must know what the kata means, then you must learn to apply it. Just reading (solo practice) won't get you anywhere.

[TJS]

Most people are talking about Training meathods..generally most traditional schools have little or no realistic sparring with heavy/full contact..clinch work..ground work etc...

 

They "show" you things but you rarely got to practice them against a fully resisting opponet.

[Kirves]

Good point, TJS. Very true. When I hacked kata training into three bits, that's exactly what I meant too.

 

The bit 1 (= read the kata) = solo training - some stick to this only

 

The bit 2 (= practice with partner) = practice on non-resisting partner - this is what you pointed out, some go this far

 

The bit 3 (= practice with resisting partner) = free contact sparring - only few do this too

[ninjanurse]

Good thoughts Kirves! I like the way you explained yourself. I agree that just "going through the motions" is NOT kata training and to truely know and understand karate you must truely know and understand kata. It is true that many schools today do not teach bunkai-I myself went to one such school and after I began teaching kata bunkai to my classes, the rest of the instructors started to ask questions and began to do so also. Up to that point they had only been explaining the "application" of isolated techniques. It really made a difference in the students and their understanding of the art.

 

[GreenDragon]

Traditional martial arts are effective in combat. It is true that the learning curve is a bit longer than in Krav Maga or MT, but anyone who says they are useless is uninformed or is bored and trying to start/fuel a debate. This is troll activity. By asking for reasons why traditional arts are useless, you are asking for reasons why the trolls are correct, when there can be no such reasons. Don't feed the trolls!

 

Stop being so paranoid about a few highly slanted views on traditional martial arts. There are more people on this board that will recommend them than there are people who will bash them, so why are you so focused on the ones bashing the TMAs? If you like the Kung Fu school go train there and once you have made that decision, embrace your art and start training hard in it, not second guessing it just because of a couple naysayers. You will never be a good race car driver or have fun driving if you are afraid to start the car because some jackholes are telling you the car you are in is the wrong one. The most important thing is to pick a car and be passionate about learning how to drive that car well.

[Kirves]

Good points GreenDragon, but it is understandable that if someone sees constant bashing at one's art, he may want to know the "why". And that is exactly what this thread is about: why some people bash the traditional arts (like karate's kata here)? We aren't here discussing wether or not kata is bad, but thinking about the reasons why someone would think that is is.

[GreenDragon]

Kirves - I know what you mean and I do understand why he would want to know why. However, this kind of thread is common for aznkarateboi and rather than continuing along the lines of "this person says TMAs are useless, what do you think?" I am trying to steer him in a different direction, one of not caring about all that bashing. Because the bashing won't stop and no matter how many different posts he makes with the same general concern, we won't be able to help him until he learns to make up his mind to ignore the bashing and choose what feels right for him.

 

And for the record, he didn't ask for reasons "why certain people bash the TMAs". He asked for "more specific details on why TMAs are useless". Big difference there...in the former he would be asking non-bashers what is up with all the bashing. But in the latter, he actually is asking the bashers for a detailed bashing. Definately something I wanted to warn him against doing.

 

aznkarateboi - Kirves, TJS and ninjanurse all made excellent posts, however, we will not really be able to "provide more specific details on why these arts (traditional) are 'useless'" because they are not. If you just want to know why the bashers think they are useless as Kirves assumed, I can offer two possible reasons. 1) It is a common misconception that the experience one has with something is the only experience there can be with that thing - example - "I studied Kung Fu and at my school we barely did anything that would be useful in the streets". And the common misconception is that based on that experience with one Kung Fu school, all Kung Fu schools barely do anything that would be useful in the streets. 2) It is a normal human reaction to think that the choice one has made is the right one, thus making the other choices wrong, it is somewhat rare to find people who understand that just because their choice was right for them, that does not make it right for everyone.

[aznkarateboi]

GreenDragon, I have taken other martial arts before such as TKD and found that I did not like the style at all. How can you blame me for attempting to find out as much information as possible about a school before going to it? As for my other posts, they are irrelevant and bringing them in does not aid the discussion.