Whats wrong with Japanese styles?

[Beer-monster]

Just a quick question for all, especially Jeet Kune Do stylists and such.

 

What is wrong with Japanese martial arts.

 

Many people cross-train these days, but few of the well known multi stylists such as Joseph Simonet and others train in traditional Japanese

 

martial arts such as Karate and Traditional Jiu-jitsu. There is much Philpino style and Muay Thai and BJJ and such. But why not Japanese arts.

 

I train in both Karate and TJJ and find that it holds everything I want, and has enough shrewd street techniques to keep me safe. Sure its not good for UFC or such but that not I want. So why do few train in such arts.

 

Its not just Combat effectiveness as many train in Tai CHi or Southern Shaolin styles, and Philopine are are not any more effective that Japanese (i think ). So whats the stigma against these styles.

[Treebranch]

I myself don't know. I think those styles are fine, do what you like and like what you do.

[aznkarateboi]

Its not just Combat effectiveness as many train in Tai CHi or Southern Shaolin styles, and Philopine are are not any more effective that Japanese (i think ). So whats the stigma against these styles.

 

What's wrong with Southern Shaolin styles? And based on what I've seen, Philipino martial arts seem to be much more practical than those of japanese.

[Kirves]

Culture and history of an art mean a lot. Traditional Jujutsu, for example, was created by and for the samurai (or bushi to be more exact, samurai was jut one of the bushi classes). What this means, technically? It means quite a lot:

 

1. Samurai often wore armour and helmets, so the techniques were designed with that in mind.

 

2. Samurai were always armed, they didn't leave their swords even when they bathed. So that had a huge impact on the techniques. The most important unarmed technique for the samurai was that of countering a wrist grab. Why? Because when you were attacked by someone, your first thought is to draw the sword fast. So they try to stop you from doing that by grabbing your wrist or arm. That is why all the japanese arts (jujutsu, aikido, aikijujutsu, and so on) focus so much on defending against someone grabbing one or both of your wrists. Now, how often are you attacked on the modern streets by someone coming up close and holding your wrist? Or in a bar - does the mean looking tattooed biker come yelling at you and then take a hold of your wrist?

 

3. Samurai on the battlefield worked in groups and were armed to the teeth, and wearing armour. This meant almost certain death if you were to fall on the ground (hard to get up, when you are in armour, lying on a slippery rice field and five armed warriors are trying to cut your head off), so groundfighting was rarely practiced with any seriousness.

 

So, here just a few thoughts about how the culture and environment can determine what kinds of methods are developed and why the Japanese arts aren't always the choice number one. Compare these with warriors of the Philippines who were poor people with no armour, no fancy weapons (grab a stick from the ground and start pounding), so the methods developed are quite different. One has to choose which methods suits one best.

[Treebranch]

Now, how often are you attacked on the modern streets by someone coming up close and holding your wrist? Or in a bar - does the mean looking tattooed biker come yelling at you and then take a hold of your wrist?

 

That happens alot to women. A male attacker often grabs a woman's wrist. Some techniques are dated, but the principals behind them still work.

[Kirves]

Usually the grab also includes something else, like a punch or (in the case of attacking a woman) a strong pull (in order to drag the victim somewhere). Just plain grab of the wrist as the only unarmed attack without pushing or pulling won't happen that much, but did in the old age (no pushing or pulling because they attacked with their own swords, the wrist grab was just to stop the enemy from drawing first).

 

True, the principles and mechanics work. But traditional Japanese arts base way too much focus on defending the wrists, in some people's opinion. When more common attacks on the streets are different kinds of tackles (traditional jujutsu has very few responses to these, some styles have none), headlocks, pushes/shoves, punches and chokes. Even if wrist grabs do happen, they are rare compared to these, and certainly easier to deal with, i.e. not so dangerous. So it would seem wise to study an art with more focus on the other attacks as well.

 

PS. As we were basically talking about the MMA (more specifically JKD, but the point was on mixing different arts) people mixing several arts, let's have a look at the NHB/MMA tournaments: how many tournaments have been won by a wrist grab? Or won by a counter to a wrist grab? It would seem logical for someone training MMA and training for NHB tournaments to focus on other aspects of fighting. At least IMO.

[AndrewGreen]

let's have a look at the NHB/MMA tournaments: how many tournaments have been won by a wrist grab? Or won by a counter to a wrist grab?

 

Controlling the wrists is a important skill, of course it is not done at all like the traditional he grabs your wrist and you... techniques.

[AndrewGreen]

Japanese styles are sometimes used... well Judo is anyway, kyokushin occasionally comes out ok.

 

But basically the japanese styles are more about tradition then anything else. Most lack in sparring so their techniques never get tested and drift away from reality.

[Beer-monster]

Um...Kirves I study traditional Jiu-jitsu and we hardly do anything from wrist grabs. WE learn escapes from them early but then hardly ever see them, instead we train against punchs (straight and wild hooks), skinhead kicks, label grab and punch combo's, standing chokes, hairgrabs, strangles, bear hugs (front and behind/over and under arm), Do these never happen in a fight? I hardly see the wrist grab, and then its combined with a punch.

 

Jiu-jitsu may have started in battle field techniques, but it evolved in times of peace in Japan such as the Tokugawa and Bakumatsu era. Many samurai families had lost the right to carry the two swords, and in many places it was forbidden to draw weapons (it was considered impolite to your host to decapitate someone.)

 

Karate was evolved to protect the higher classes of okinawa against civilian attack in the streets not on battle fields, so wrist grabs less of an issue.

 

Sorry for the confusion, there is nothing wrong with southern styles, but their training methods are based in forms and drills similar to Karate yet they seem to enjoy better press. And Philopine arts excepting there weapons defences and uses have shown me little that Karate or Jiu-jitsu do not have in some form (but the I never studied it so I can't be sure). I was just using such arts as they have not be famously tested in the UFC or K-1, yet still draw in more JKD and such than Japanese styles. Why?

 

I know it should not bother me as I'm doing styl;es i enjoy, but it seems like these arts are being unfairly ignored.

[Kirves]

Do these never happen in a fight?

 

I never implied they didn't. I merely mean that for a MMA fighter, i.e. the guy who wants to participate in NHB tournaments, traditional jujutsu may not be the best option because it focuses slightly on different kinds of attacks than are most commonly seen in the ring.

 

And also I feel, many of the attacks that jujutsukas train against a lot, just aren't seen on the streets that often. But as you pointed out, many are. It was not my intention to bash jujutsu or claim it isn't effective, just try to give an explanation to why MMA people mix lots of arts but rarely include much of traditional jujutsu in the mix.

 

Just my .2c