Ring the closest thing to the street?

[Kirves]

There is this huge argument going for tournament fighting being the closest thing to a real street fight. Unless you go to a street fight, of course. So why don't you go to the street instead to prove your point? Many people say that's not wise. If you go to the streets looking for trouble, you'll probably find it, and either the trouble will take care of you, or the police. Right?

 

There is one way to find out, though. There is a way to legally experience the streets. And what's that, I hear you ask. C'mon, no bells ringing? Okay I'll help you out: you can experience the street by making it a career to keep the streets safe. Simple as that. Become a cop. Or a security guard. Or work the door of a club. Or some other similar options. Make certain choices along the career path, and you can test your skills legally against the worst of the streets!

 

Why do I bring this up? Because so many people ignore this completely, when they claim all the "untested traditional arts" are unrealistic, while the ring-tested mixed styles are realistic. Untested by whom, I ask! Why don't you ask people who actually work the streets, everyday. For example, I am quite fond of books written by a traditional martial artist Loren W. Christensen. He has decades of real life experience, both policing the drunk and unruly in Vietnam, as well as policing some of the baddest streets and cities on Earth! How's he done? Still alive and kicking, telling everyone what he's learned from his experiences. Same kind of experience can be found from all round, if you look for it. Many people actually test these "untested, unproven, non-tournament" styles on the streets everyday, for years on. That is one hekk of a track record!

 

And definitely more realistic test of the methods than the ring. The ring is still good though...

 

So, the point of this is: if you want to know if a certain art is realistic for the streets, you have these options:

 

1. Illegally fight on the streets (pick up fights from some bad people)

 

2. Legally fight on the streets (become a cop, a guard, a bouncer, etc)

 

3. Listen to people who have done either of the previous options (read books, attend seminars, read articles, etc.)

[RAZOR]

Good topic and one that needs raising in light of recent debates.

 

I think the ring is the closest thing to a real fight as you can get as it puts you against an unknown opponent who really is trying to beat the living daylights out of you.

 

This is as close as you can reasobaly expect to get to a real fight.

 

The examples of being a cop or bouncer are the real thing so i guess they arent valid.

 

Going out and picking fights etc is also the real thing.

 

So to get as close to a fight but not actually be having a real fight i.e. someone can stop the fight or give up, you have to go to the ring.

 

I would like to add that there are very few systems that do this. If you want to learn how to fight for real then you have to go this route, not wanting to upset anyone but i know it will, there is no alternative.

 

Going in the ring will always make you better and i see it at my club when someone has their first fight , full contact sparring suddenly becomes easier and they do more and react better, sparring seems slower etc.

[Kirves]

So to get as close to a fight but not actually be having a real fight

 

Yes. But if we keep the point of this thread at wether or not a certain art/style works on the street, then the outcome is better determined by going to the street (as a cop, guard, bouncer, ...) than by going to the ring.

 

I do agree, that a person who is reluctant or unable to go to the street, and who nevertheless wants to test his own skills personally, for him the ring is the place to go. But that's not my point at all.

 

My point is this:

 

Does Silat work on the streets? How about karate? How about Wing Chun? The tournament fighters say these absolutely won't work because they aren't seen in the rings. But which is more important, wether you see them work in the ring, or if you see them work on the streets? If a whole police department can survive for 50 years teaching nothing but Wing Chun to it's officers, shouldn't that tell us something? If the officers working there all say the stuff works when you-know-what hits the fan? If I want to study self defence, I'd rather ask the guy who's actually had to defend himself over decades against actual street encounters and criminals, while having to do it "by the book" while at it, than the guy who won the local tournament.

Going in the ring will always make you better

 

Of course, that was not being disputed.

[RAZOR]

Sorry i see your point.

 

The real experience of people using them has to be the best test.

 

I would say that there is probably going to be a lack of determination against fighting a cop or a bouncer because of the position of authority they hold, the back up they have and the consequences of your actions.

 

Its best for people who study MA and have used it to give their opinions but they are likely to be biased.

 

Difficult really but if it works in the ring i would say it works in the street.

 

Now ive typed this im kind of changing my mind back to the ring again.

 

Ummmm im going to open MS Word and have an argument with myself about this and i'll let you know the outcome.

[Kirves]

I would say that there is probably going to be a lack of determination against fighting a cop or a bouncer because of the position of authority they hold

 

Reality check! Here a couple of suggestions: go ask if your local library has the "Skid Row Beat" or "Crouching Tiger" by Loren W. Christensen. There are some real life stories about cop work in some of the worst neighborhoods of the world. The criminals in such places don't give a rat's rear end about "the authority" - or the consequences.

Difficult really but if it works in the ring i would say it works in the street.

 

Depends on the ring. But agreed, ring experience is good.

i'll let you know the outcome.

 

Looking forward to it!

[RAZOR]

Yes finished,

 

I have to say i agree that if it works for a cop or a bouncer it should be a valid technique.

 

The ring is useful and gives an excellent preparation for real fights.

 

I would still maintain that alot of people are going to be less resistent to a cop but in certain areas this is not the case.

 

So yeah, be cop and kick everyones a$$ and then win a belt or the other way round and err thats it

[Kirves]

So yeah, be cop and kick everyones a$$ and then win a belt or the other way round and err thats it

 

Or, like most do, study under someone who did that. The percentage of us who actually train for tournaments or make a career change is quite small, so the next best thing is to make sure our instruction comes from someone who knows the reality and teaches accordingly.

 

Now, it's time to shut up and train.

[Icetuete]

i opened this thread somewhere discussing the real fight situations as well... made my point clear there.

 

as for the cops: it might be difficult for a single cop to handle a gang of thugs carrying chains/baseball bats/knives etc all by him self. and probably no pankration/BJJ/MT or whatever could. a cop is suited for this situation because he has got a radio to call for reinforcement and he carries a gun and a stick (at least most cops do). so he can probably handle different situations more easy.

 

as for the ring: u already visited my post about this @ kirves and know my point that any training in whatever style prepares u better than no training at all!

[Kirves]

it might be difficult for a single cop to handle a gang of thugs carrying chains/baseball bats/knives etc all by him self

 

Ahem. It "might" be difficult for any one of us, even Bruce Lee himself!

[GreenDragon]

Side one of coin: In the ring everyone you fight will be a highly trained fighter. Most thugs are not highly trained, although they may have a lot of experience, they are not martial arts experts the vast majority of the time (at least where I live). A typical thug will have far fewer skills than the typical MMA stylist. This is an endorsement for the ring being a better test of a fighter.

 

Side two of the coin: Although some people will yield to authority, the real baddies (which cops have to deal with regularly) will tend to fight far more fiercely than even the most determined and skilled ring fighter, and will not give up, ever. To avoid going to prison it is not at all uncommon for a suspect to try and kill a police officer. Many people think that if something violent like an attack on a cop were to happen in their community, it would be all over the news. Having been entertained by a police scanner many nights and reading the news the next day I can personally say this is absolutely not the case. Gag orders to the media are so common in drug and gang related crimes that most people have no idea just how dangerous of a city they live in. This is an endorsement for the life of a street cop/security guard, etc. being the best test of fighting skills.

 

In conclusion, to anyone willing to step in the professional ring or fight real bad guys on the street as a cop, I salute you. I will never be devoted/foolhardy/brave enough to do either of those ultimate tests of fighting skills. And since I do not do either, there is no way for me to back up a claim of which one is a better test of fighting skills. If anyone on this board has experience with both, their word will be gospel, everyone else is simply justifying their own opinion. So have fun with that.

 

GreenDragon