TOP UN ARMED MARTIAL ARTS I CAN THINK OF

[RAZOR]

Well I looked on Pankration.com as well as other sights and cant find Muay Thai.

 

I think you got that one wrong.

 

Greek and Thai culture have never crossed.

 

Please show me some evidence of this.

[MuayThai Fighter]

Pankration sounds good but i would like to point out that the chances of it being based on Muay Thai are zero although in recent history Muay Thai may have been added.

 

How so?

 

What people call Pankration today doesn't have a direct historical lineage to the ancient Pankration. Pankration is just used as a general term of fighting in the same spirit as the Greeks did, but usually the people training in Pankration today are just MMA fighters with certain rule set. Or am I wrong, is there someone actually teaching an art that has a direct link of teachers reaching to the old fighters of ancient Greece? The pancrece people I've met have all been just MT+BJJ+SW+SF+etc mixers.

 

You could say samething for most karate styles and schools,because most of the masters are no longer alive.Does that mean you guys aren't learning the real thing either then? And don't forget there are several karate styles out there not just one.

 

I believe Pankration still has something to do with the ancient Pankration even if it doesn't have a direct link to the teachers of the old fighters of ancient Greece.

 

It is still practiced very similar to the old days,only a few things have changed about it.

I thought that was shootfighting.

 

The two are similar just from different times

 

Here's a quote from the 2Shoot website:

It had its genisis less than 25 years ago when a famous German wrestler taught the art of real wrestling or "shooting", to a group of top Japanese martial artist. The wrestling they learned bore only a superficial resemblance to today's professional wrestling. Two of these Japanese martial artist, Masami Soranaka, practitioner of karate,judo and sumo, and Yoshiaki Fujiwara, a muay thai kickboxing champion and judo expert, combined their knowledge of these diverse styles and created what has come to be known as UWF wrestling or the strong style. Official matches have been held for almost 10 years and the sport's popularity has grown till it is now the third most popular spectator sport in Japan behind baseball and sumo. There are currently three main organizations sanctioning matches and teaching the style. Of these the oldest and largest is the Fujiwara Gumi (family) run by founder and former champion Yoshiaki Fujiwara. The current world champion of the Fujiwara Gumi is Miami's Bart Vale, The first foreigner (American) to reach the highest levels of the sport. Vale who coined the term Shootfighting® to describe the style, combined the wrestling and muay thai techniques he learned in Japan with his experience in American karate and kickboxing to advance the sport further.

 

And your point is?

Edited June 17, 2003 by MuayThai Fighter

[Kirves]

You could say samething for most karate styles and schools,because most of the master are no longer alive.Does that mean you guys aren't learning the real thing either then?

 

Well, the difference is that the modern teachers of karate got it from the teachers that were themselves taught by the masters in direct descent. It was not like the karate masters died and nobody did karate for 500 years, then some people started fighting and called it karate because they used the same rules and similar techniques as the masters 500 years ago.

 

But as I said, I may not know all there is to Pankration, maybe there is a line of instructors who have been doing it for all the centuries from ancient Greek, via Roman people, all the way up till today?

 

My intention was never to put Pankration down in any way - I know it is a good fighting style. I was just talking about direct descent from a person to a person to a person beginning in ancient Greek and going unbroken until today. Because such a link doesn't exist (that I'm aware of), the people who train in Pankration make the style up from what's available today, i.e. MT, SW and so on.

 

 

And your point is?

 

I was informing RAZOR here on the points that I thought he got wrong.

[MuayThai Fighter]

You could say samething for most karate styles and schools,because most of the master are no longer alive.Does that mean you guys aren't learning the real thing either then?

 

Well, the difference is that the modern teachers of karate got it from the teachers that were themselves taught by the masters in direct descent. It was not like the karate masters died and nobody did karate for 500 years, then some people started fighting and called it karate because they used the same rules and similar techniques as the masters 500 years ago.

 

But as I said, I may not know all there is to Pankration, maybe there is a line of instructors who have been doing it for all the centuries from ancient Greek, via Roman people, all the way up till today?

 

My intention was never to put Pankration down in any way - I know it is a good fighting style. I was just talking about direct descent from a person to a person to a person beginning in ancient Greek and going unbroken until today. Because such a link doesn't exist, the people who train in Pankration make it up from what's available today, i.e. MT, SW and so on.

 

 

And your point is?

 

I was informing RAZOR here on the points that I thought he got wrong.

 

Well I believe that since Pankration hasn't been taught for centuries until now the only direct link to the teachers of Pankration are found papers on how the teachers taught it back then in Greece,so basically it does still have a direct link.

 

I could ask my instructor for you,just to make sure because he would know more about it then me.

[Kirves]

Well I believe that since Pankration hasn't been taught for centuries until now the only direct link to the teachers of Pankration are found papers on how the teachers taught it back then in Greece,so basically it does still have a direct link.

 

Personally, I don't feel paper is a direct link. If it were, then I could start telling people I'm teaching Koga ryu ninjutsu because the instruction scrolls of Koga ryu are available for all to see in a museum. A direct link would be to have hands-on instruction from the source.

 

But this is not important. Pankration as is, remains a highly effective combat sport and there's no denying that.

I could ask my instructor for you,just to make sure because he would know more about it then me.

 

Nah, it's not that important. I just responded to correct some mistakes in RAZOR's post, that's all.

[RAZOR]

I dont understand how Thai and Greek culture crossed.

 

There is no way the Thais would have shown the Greeks Muay Thai.

 

Ive looked into Thai history a bit but i have never heard of them teaching it to foreigners. In fact its only in the last century that it has been noticed and i think this is when it was added to Pankration.

 

From what I understand Pankration is like any other intelligent system, it changes with the times.

 

Not trying to offend just dont see the link at all.

[broomhilda000]

Best mixed arts

 

Pankration

 

Shooto

 

Savate

 

JKD

 

Best Single stand up fighting arts

 

MuayThai

 

American Kickboxing

 

Best Grappling arts:

 

Submission Wrestling

 

Jujitsu

 

Aikido

 

Judo

 

What's your guys opinion?

 

Don't forget these are OPINIONS

[kle1n]

beat stand up art:

 

aikido (mixed with striking art like win chung)

 

muay thai)

 

this is my opinion which would fit best to me. of course for others other arts could be more effective

[Treebranch]

There are MA's out there that don't compete that are very effective. I think the only difference is in the training of these MA's. If you trained someone as hard as some of these MMA pro fighters train in something like Kung Fu San Soo or Krav Maga and they have a natural ability to fight, they would hold there own with anyone. It's not the MA. IT'S THE FIGHTER. If your a NHB fan than you are only seeing certain MA's being displayed here. Not because these are the "Best MA's", but because these MA's that are now being Mixed for these competitions have always been in the competition circuit. Basically, Muay Thai (Sport Art), BJJ (Sport Art), Shoot Fighting (Sport Art), Savate (Sport Art), so I hope you see what I'm getting at. The MA's that have always been in the Competition Circuit are the MA's you see in NHB and MMA competitions. Most people who are fans only see and study the MA's that are popular because of these fights. So there is a whole world of MA's out there that are just as effective. YOU JUST HAVEN'T SEEN THEM YET. Maybe the philosphy behind these MA's are against Competition for one reason or another, that doesn't mean they don't work.

[Treebranch]

Budo Taijutsu times 10. Just kidding. But it's still kick a$$.