Six months - year of Pankration vs.10+years of asian arts.

[pvwingchun]

I also did say traditional arts aren't about fighting

Not True

I did however say traditional was useless depending on what you want to do with it,if it is for self-defense then it is

Not true

As far as I know muay thai is the only style that uses elbows

Not true

[RAZOR]

Well, in defence of Mauy Thai fighter i will say this.

 

I did Karate for a while and always lost in sparring, they did full contact, i left and started Muay Thai but i remained friends with the Karate club which used to meet up outside of the d it.ojo to spar sometimes.

 

Anyway.... i went back to see them about 5 months later and i beat everyone in the club and a couple refused to spar at all. No joke, i was suprised but hey... just goes to show doesnt it.

[Martial_Artist]

Muay Thai Fighter,

 

Yes, I do make a distinct difference between a martial artist and an athlete. Whether that definition fits into your world doesn't matter. I can see that it does not. But, our views of what makes a martial artist is not what's at hand here. So, I don't see how anything more can be said about it. You feel the athletes in the ring are martial artists, I don't think of them as such. Contest and survival are two different things for me. That's my opinion on the subject.

If they're not martial artists,I'd like to see you try and fight them,they'd kick your @ss.

 

But I guess, since fighting is only a sport,I guess you'll never have to worry about that.

 

People who say b.s of true martial artists not needing to fight in ring to prove themselves, only say that as an excuse for not getting beaten up.

 

I won't get into this. It's childish to sit there and claim so and so can beat you up, etc, etc. You don't know me, MuayThaiFighter. You know nothing about me except what I want you to know about me. We'll just leave it at that. About the people who speak against the athletes in the ring. Perhaps you are right about most of them, but you are wrong to make such an assumption about me. But, I don't feel like wasting too many words over the subject.

 

Fighting isn't a sport in my book, but I've already discussed that. Onto something new.

 

We're not going anywhere with this. It doesn't need to turn into a shouting match or another "I'm right, you're wrong, stop beating up my idols." thread. I won't be responding after this. I have said what I feel to be sufficient on my position. Do with it what you will.

 

SevenStar,

 

Well, what you said about getting in the ring hinges on the definition I carry for a martial artist. I do not think that a martial artist would have any business in a ring. BUT, that's wholly my opinion of a martial artist. I never said that you should follow my mode of thinking. I merely shared my view of the subject.

 

Real working knowledge and training suffice much more sufficiently that getting in a ring and fighting in a controlled environment. Part of that training is fighting, but not in a ring for contest or sport. That's the distinction I make. Those that fight in the ring are not doing it to become better martial artists, they're doing it to win, to promote, or to prove something either to themselves or to the rest of world.

 

My training has been real enough to allow me to survive life-threatening situations here in the US and in the jungles of the Philippines. I didn't need to get into a ring to prove it to myself. (Besides, what I did to save my life couldn't really be done in a ring).

 

About the m16, the example is flawed. Think of the analogy. Shooting an m16 in combat is not the same as fighting in a contest.

 

I don't have much love for TMA, read any of my past posts, (The Martial Arts in combative arts and ART vs ART?!?! in comparative). I'm not their advocator, or defender. If it is the TMAists that do the most trash talking then, yes, perhaps they should stop. But, I don't care about ego fights. Same reason I don't care for sanctioned NHB sport events.

 

And, YES, anyone who competes in a sporting contest is crossed of my list as a real martial artist. Roll your eyes, but that's a matter of opinion. I don't belittle you because of your opinion. Nor do I mock your opinion. If you don't like my opinion then let it go in one ear and out the other. It won't matter to me.

PROVEN? Real MA don't have to prove themselves... Besides, who was around to see it? was it documented? can you put it online? Exactly. So you proved it to whom? Yourself, right? same reason why I fight - I do it for myself.

 

Wrong. The difference is I don't seek out venues for proving to others what I am capable of. I have done such and that is sufficient enough for me. I didn't need to prove it to myself. The difference is need. I did not seek out the fights in which I did prove my ability. I didn't need to. I don't want to find any more. And after the event I wasn't much different. I didn't suddenly cry out, "WOW! It worked! Yippy! I guess I was learning something real!" I didn't have to declare such because I already knew such...even without getting in a ring to prove it to myself or anyone else. Imagine that.

 

Documentation? I can't document anything. Then again, what would it prove? That I did something? What does that matter? All that matters is if I can do something when needed. And I don't need to get into a ring and play a game to tell me whether I can or can't. Even if I never did those things I did, I still wouldn't be trying to get into a ring to say to myself, "I've got to prove it."

 

Well, it is all really a personal issue. It is in the core of the person to discover their reasons for doing things. I'm not attacking your reasons for doing what you do. I'm sharing mine for doing what I do and believing the way I do. This isn't a "I'm right, you're wrong." topic. It shouldn't be. It won't be. I've said more than enough to clearly define why I believe what I believe, and why I post such. If I can't post something for fear of it not "fitting" in with the crowd, then what's the point of communal learning? Our opinions most likely won't match up perfectly on every single subject. Neither will our beliefs about why something should be a certain way or not. We take it personally, or shrug it off. Whether we believe that person or not isn't a matter of conversion. If you agree, good. If not, good. If you want to share why not, even better. But name calling(there hasn't been, this is in general) rudeness, &c. don't have a place in the exchange of ideals.

 

I guess I have said my peace. There's nothing really more to say, so I won't.

 

Keep striving for whatever goals you have set. We all need to reach for something higher, to keep pushing ourselves towards perfection, and to reach the greater goal.

 

MA.

[RAZOR]

Yes try and get on ultimately we all disagree from time to time so stop trying to make people see it your way.

 

If they dont want to they dont have too.

 

As long as they dont disrespect you it does not matter.

 

I guess we are all looking for approval for what we do and when someone disagrees loyalty comes in and that makes us angry.

[G95champ]

Mr. Green

 

I understand you point better now. I do agree that MMA will teach you all those other things its just done in a differant fashionl. You learn morals from not hitting a guy who is about out cold or breaking your friends arm. Which is fine its just a differant way to do so.

 

However you would agree that MMA focus is on fighting... If you had to put a % on it I would bet it would be greater than 80.

 

Now here is what I am asking you to understand. Traditional arts give you the option to grow as well. Yes they have certin things you must do like kata. But these are things passed on from the founders not things made up by Sensei Bob and John at McDojo USA....

 

Once a TMA reaches a certin leval of understaning they will have the option of going several differant ways. Including full contact fighting...

 

Back to your example. Yes we copy the ways many did it before us. However every good artists studies Van Gogh, Michaelangelou, and DaVinchi. Sure you can just pick up a brush and paint and you may be good but most studty the greats then go off on their own. This is what TMA does it shows you how it was done in the past then it leaves the door open for you to add on to it. No 2 people have the same MA.

 

What you are saying MMA does is you just start painting. If you just start with no idea about techinques developed before you then IMO you are not doing yourself justice. I mean heck you may find them along the way but why learn something on your own that has been in use for many years.

 

Again its just 2 differant ways of looking at it. My ideas are not right to everyone just as yours are not right to everyone. Both of us make valid points but to say one art is not as good as another is false because with everything else being the same in the end all arts will even out, they just start in differant places.

[aznkarateboi]

a question: if someone learns muay thai and bjj separately but uses both styles when fighting is he doing pankration?

[psychospaz]

if he wins, yes

 

if he loses, he is a TMArtist

[MuayThai Fighter]

a question: if someone learns muay thai and bjj separately but uses both styles when fighting is he doing pankration?

 

Very good question.

 

If a person uses muay thai and bbj together they are using pankration whether they realize it or not, because bbj is very similar to submission wrestling ,which is part of Pankration.However if they are practicing it individually then no it's not Pankration,it only is when used together in fighting.

[MuayThai Fighter]

Some argue it is the style and others say it is the individual that determines how good a person will turn out,should they decide to compete.

 

The answer to that is both are equally important,you can train very hard to be a good fighter but if your style is not based on fighting it won't do any good and the same is the other way around.

 

In my opinion if competition is the way you want to go,then a MMA is the the root to follow,and how hard the individual trains also counts.

 

Styles do matter when it comes to fighting in competition.

 

Take a tradtionalist and put him in the ring against an MMA,and 9 out of 10x the MMA will win.

 

Reason being is although MMA learn techniques like any other style they are based on fighting,it's as simple as that.

 

Some styles just aren't made for fighting.

 

Think of it this way,would you put a BMW car on a race track? of course not.why they're still cars right?Well obviously because a BMW isn't meant for racing.

 

Same goes for martial arts,whether traditional or a MMA they're both still martial arts,but you couldn't expect to put a traditionalist against a MMA using full contact rules and expect the traditionalist to win,it will never happen or very unlikely anyways.Traditional arts just aren't meant for fighting.Until traditionalists wake up and realize that there will always be disagreements and arguement about this.

 

Everyone claims to have the best style,but traditionalist rarely are willing to back it up,where as different styles of MMA are willing to because we know that we will win.

 

I've read that true martial artists don't need to fight in ring to prove themselves and to get trophies.

 

Well it's true that not everyone is interested in competeing but the only way to find out how good you and your style really are is by challenging other styles.

 

Just because a martial artist competes it doesn't make him any less of a martial artist,infact it makes him more of one.Of course the trophies aren't important,because it's not about winning or losing it is about putting your style and yourself to test whether you win or not and about having fun.

 

Should you win though it proves that you are a better fighter then your opponent.The way you train is the way you'll fight in competition,traditionalists don't train the same way as MMA which makes them lack in knowledge of fighting.

 

Traditionalists believe that the hidden techniques in their katas are very effective as both a way of training their mind,body and spirit but at same time helping them to be a better fighter from improvement of their forms.They feel the better they can perform the techniques of kata the better prepared they can be if they are ever to be attacked and need to protect themselves,which just isn't so.

 

One thing I do respect about traditionalists is though that they really believe in what they train in and work hard at what they do,whether us MMA find it realistic or not and don't care what others believe and say.

 

To me the only thing katas really do is build co-ordination,balance,posture,focus,direction all which all styles teach anyways,all of these are important to be a better fighter,but there is a right and wrong way to go about it for the sake of competition.

 

If a martial artist doesn't care for competiton and does do TMA then how they train really isn't important and neither is crossed training.

[pvwingchun]

Take a tradtionalist and put him in the ring against an MMA,and 9 out of 10x the MMA will win.

To many variables to determine this. Besides where do you get the stats.

Think of it this way,would you put a BMW car on a race track? of course not.why they're still cars right?Well obviously because a BMW isn't meant for racing.

Juan Montoya just won the Gran Prix of Monte Carlo in a BMW.

Same goes for martial arts,whether traditional or a MMA they're both still martial arts,but you couldn't expect to put a traditionalist against a MMA using full contact rules and expect the traditionalist to win,it will never happen or very unlikely anyways.

Why is it unlikely.

Traditional arts just aren't meant for fighting.

Not true.

Until traditionalists wake up and realize that there will always be disagreements and arguement about this.

Until MMA or any other art that claims to be the best stops claiming to be the answer there will be disagreements.

Everyone claims to have the best style,but traditionalist rarely are willing to back it up,where as different styles of MMA are willing to because we know that we will win.

Most traditionalists I know feel no need to prove anything. How do you know you will win.

The way you train is the way you'll fight in competition,traditionalists don't train the same way as MMA which makes them lack in knowledge of fighting.

We have a great wealth of knowledge where I train.

If a martial artist doesn't care for competiton

We don't train for competition we train to survive.

 

Why do some feel the constant need to puff out their chest and extoll the virtues of MMA or any particular art for tath matter. It would make much more sense to discuss differernces and similarities without putting down what others do and how they do it.