Six months - year of Pankration vs.10+years of asian arts.

[Martial_Artist]

So Michael Jordan Wastes his Time proving to the world how good he is at basketball?

 

Lennox Lewis is also wasting his Time i guess..

 

So then you view the martial arts as a sport? Here I must agree that we disagree. If you train in the martial arts for sports then you are an athlete. Micheal Jordan played for what reasons? I guess he can only answer that, but I can guess that among other reasons it was for fame, money, and to prove he was the best. Which is the point in sports. There is a winner and a loser. There are points and trophies. Micheal Jordan and Lennox Lewis have nothing to do with what I am saying.

Yes, Royce Gracie wanted to Prove His Family's stlye was effective and he did so.

 

Mas Oyama wanted to Prove Kyokushin was the most effective so he traveled to Thailand to do it against the worlds best.

 

Everyone can talk, few back it up.

 

Like I said, they did it for reasons alien to true martial artists. As for Mas Oyama, the japanese are well known for not taking offenses or challenges to anything domestic lightly.

 

 

Not Today because they would not be succesful unless they changed their training meathods...Everyone knows this including them.

 

However plenty did in the past.

 

some people like to back up their claims...most dont.

 

I'm not arguing pro-TMA. I don't really care what is said about TMA being effective, &c. I'm saying those who are studying the martial arts and not some sport will not find themselves in a ring, because they don't care what other people think about them. They don't need publicity, fame, fortune, good advertising, or to prove to themselves that, hey! they can win a contest, because these things are worthless to someone who is out to become a martial artist. All that matters is the crucial moment when your life depends on it. You train and train and hope that day never comes. You are a martial artist because you take the defense of your own life into your hands and put that responsibility into no one eles's. You are not a martial artist because you want to go into a ring and beat chests against other martial artist so you can, Lo and behold! I'm better than you! My martial art is better than yours! Haha!! Look at me! I can fight!! C'mon! Tell me I'm a good fighter.

 

And as for some people talk and others like to back their talk up, that's the useless drivel of an adolescent mind. Only fools want to prove they're tougher than someone else, not martial artists. You want tough contests go back to secondary school. Martial artists are striving for something higher than that, something more personal and much, much more powerful than simply being able to defeat other people trying to boost their egoes in a ring.

 

Do I think Royce Gracie fought anyone of respectable skill? No. How can I say that? Because I saw those fights. I have been in fights across this vast rock of a planet and I can say those fights were ridiculous to the point of school children jumping on each other and fighting. I don't care if you don't agree with that. I know enough that we don't see eye to eye about certain things. I'm not here to even try to preach to you or even convince you of what I'm saying. So, whether you agree with me or not, is irrelevant.

 

Now, do I think real martial artists of skill will ever participate in a NHB fight? No. Because it's not upon their path for martial perfection. Contests of skill prove nothing. So what if you can beat up a bunch of guys in the ring. All I care about is doing it when it counts for life or death. I am more than confident I can do such. I have proven such and am alive because of it. So, I don't need someone claiming that what they watch on TV is gospel, because frankly, gospel it is not.

 

Then again, I guess it doesn't matter, does it? Because, ol' Royce and all the other NHB guys are in the ring showing off and I'm not. I guess that makes me something less of a fighter, then? Or maybe it means that what I do doesn't somehow really work? Wow! I guess then I should go back to every fight I have been in here in the US and in the jungles of the Philippines and look them over and say, "You know what, TJS is right. Royce knew his sh!t. Boy, was I wrong! Boy, I don't anything about the martial arts unless I compete in a contest."

 

Well, it doesn't matter, really it doesn't. You won't see it my way, and I definitely don't see it yours. But, for me, that's fine. I'm not trying to preach "Follow me!" nor am I trying to convert you to my way of thinking.

 

But I guess that's something you won't see about me. Perhaps you think I'm a stylist? Or a TMAist? Or even a MMAist? How about none? I'm a simple martial artist. I'll let you figure that out for yourself.

 

MA.

 

Forgive the ramblings of a lost soul...

[G95champ]

Amen

[AndrewGreen]

Mr Green

 

MMA teaches you to fight quicker no question about it. Fight better well like you said that is up to the person doiing MMA vs the person doing TMA.

 

TMA cannot teach you to fight to the same level as MMA, The traditional teaching and training methods don't do that.

TMA teaches you other things early on. Just like MMA teaches you to fight early on. Both will get you to the same place down the road but they start in differant places.

 

This is what I disagree with, MMA can and does do those as well.

My point yes MMA will teach you to fight sooner but but doing so you loose other things.

 

I don't believe you do.

TMA teaches out discipline,

 

MMA does too, more important perhaps because a lack of it is a serious safety risk.

morals,

 

Again this is neccessary in MMA to the full extent that I believe a Martial Arts teacher should teach too. Sportsmanship is a part of any well coached sport.

 

Morals are something which different people have different views on. Which set of morals should be taught? That is the job of parents, preachers & counslers, not sports coaches.

kata,

 

Which serves what purpose?

weapons,

 

Can be trained within a MMA enviornment. I do it, so do many others.

history,

 

MMA has a history too, Do you think MMA fighters don't learn about the history of their style? but how is that relevant?

traditions,

 

Better of without them...

SD, blah blah blah as well as how to fight.

 

Again MMA does these, and you have admitted it does these better.

In the end they both get to the same place.

 

No, they don't.

My comparison was very good BTW. You win the race in your Vet. I get there in my dump truck but it takes me longer and I got some more knowledge along the way. Now because you learned so much quicker than me who is to say you did not stop by at the Lib. on your way to the finish line and learn some more.

 

How about this one.

 

One person learns to paint by copying the works and style of one artist, never deviating from that style. He learns the history, the techniques, the culture of the time, etc.

 

The other learns the techniques of a bunch of different artists and is encouraged to develop his own style and be creative. He creates his own style based on what suites him and his personallity/culture.

 

Who gets the most benefit?

 

The one who is bound by the style of someone else and can never exceed that. He is trying to use a style which is not his, trying to be someone he is not. Whatever he paints is someone elses, everything he does is second hand.

 

The second is bound by no one, he develops a style which is his, his paintings are his own, he is creative and explores different techniques and different approaches used by many different painters.

 

Neither method is "wrong", but I'd rather be the second one and you can't tell me they get you to the same place in the end.

[pvwingchun]

I have stayed out of this but I would like to now offer a few view points.

 

We have people in the kwoon who study for health reasons and that is obvious. It is a social climate for them, something like going to a gym. I am sure every school has them. Not everybody who walks in the door wants to fight, that is obvious by the lack of bodies on sparring nite, be it full or light contact. BTW we do from time to time train as close to full contact as we can without hurting each other.

 

Point sparring and tournaments (UFC, NHB and the likes included) are different then trainig for self defense on the street where there are no rules. Contrary to popular belief there are rules in NHB and UFC contests. A very long list at that. If you train to point spar that is how you will fight. You train like you fight and you fight like you train.

 

Depending on the art you train and goal that you train towards produces the individual capable of using the art in its intended form or not. There are many serious people training in traditional arts that have no desire to get in a ring and prove their manhood. Those are the guys that scare me not the ones spouting off about how they and their art are the best being it a MMA or a TMA. Those guys train in traditional methods that would make the "brutality" of MMA competitiors training look like a Sunday school.

 

I or anyone else for that matter can train just as hard to fight and protect myself as someone who trains to fight in a tournament and get the same results if I train with the proper mindset. What matters is your ultimate goal with the tools you have received.

 

I think someone else has said it is the competitor not the art.

[MuayThai Fighter]

it sounds to me like you know very little of other styles.

 

you say you do not wish to offend but you insist on calling other styles' training methods "stupid" and you have no idea what katas are for.

 

just so that you know, muay thai is not the only martial art in the world that uses knees, elbows grabs, grapples etc etc...

 

maybe you would like to learn a bit more before saying your art is the best, because let's face it, that is what you are saying.

 

First of all I'm stating my opinion not offending anyone unless you take it the wrong way.

 

Second I have not once called other styles stupid,what I did was say what the difference is between traditional asian arts and pankration as far as self-defense.Do not forget I did say that not all people do martial arts for same reason,I also did say traditional arts aren't about fighting where as Muay Thai is,but never said traditional in itself was stupid.

 

I did however say traditional was useless depending on what you want to do with it,if it is for self-defense then it is,however if it isn't then traditonal arts is fine.

 

You're right Muay Thai isn't the only style that uses knees,grabs etc.I was just giving that as an example,however Muay Thai was the first art to ever use knees,any style that uses knees today incorporated the knee kicks from muay thai into their style.

 

As far as I know muay thai is the only style that uses elbows,well I know they were also the ones who came up with the idea originally.

 

I don't know what katas are for!!!!!!!! No of course not,I only did them for several years.Sarcasm. I of course know what katas are for.You like most other traditionalists don't believe in change just because of what your sensei tells you and how the masters practiced and are brain washed into believeing your styles are good for self-defense when they're not,however they are good for co-ordination,balance,focus,posture,body conditioning and great way to express yourself.So I'm not going to say katas are completely useless,it just depends on what you expect from them,just don't expect too much.

 

I never said Muay Thai or Pankration was the best although I know it is one of the best.Any art that is same or similar to mine is the best,IF FIGHTING IS WHAT YOU ARE LOOKING FOR.

[MuayThai Fighter]

Hmm, I've kept out of this for a while just because it really is just one guy promoting his new system to help himself feel better about taking it. But, I've got to say something.

 

The first thing I've got to say is: I don't care who you are 6-12mo. of training in an open hand martial art is nothing compared to 4-5years or more. I don't care what "system" of martial art you are taking if you are lead to believe that in 6mo. you will be an "effective" fighting "machine" then you are simply being sold.

 

And about your method of fighting. You are one arrogant person. You assume that the person you will be fighting is going to be some mindless twit that can't fathom moving or defending himself because he doesn't do pankration.

 

I'm not a defender of styles or systems (just look up any of my past posts--those that know me also know this), but I will speak out against bs.

 

I did some research on Pankration and the sites I got information from claim Pankration is a sport, designed for a ringed environment. Here are two sites I visited:

 

https://www.pankration.com

 

https://www.chez.com/pancrace/

 

Both of these give clear pictures of the history and future of Pankration. It seems to me to clearly be a NHB orientated system.

 

I think that if you want to start beating chests you should have at least chose a real combat art instead of an old olympic-class sport like Pankration. (Just because they fought to the death, sometimes, doesn't mean they did so effectively or efficiently. Illegal street fights in the Philippines fight to the death, those guys aren't the best fighters. They have weak technique, form, etc. But they're fighting people of the same caliber. The real martial artists don't fight there--mainly because they're not involved with the mob--because why would they? Same reason I don't compete in NHB. I don't need to prove anything to anyone. I don't train for sport or trophy. I know what I'm capable of and that's fine for me. I don't need anyone else telling me how good I am or what a great fighter I am. My self-esteem isn't that weak.

 

Perhaps, you should look deeper into what a martial art is. It is combat centered, thus called martial, but it's an art, meaning it does something more for the personal than merely puffing up your pride.

 

MA

 

I have been in Pankration about 5 yrs.now,however when I first took it ,it seemed weird because I was used to a different kind of training,since it was karate I originally did.Within 6-12 months I learnt a hell of alot more in self-defense/street-defense then I did in my previous 12yrs.of karate.

 

I had a pretty good karate teacher however,but because Pankration teaches actual fighting it takes less time to become a good fighter,maybe not a proffessional fighter, but compared to most if not all black belts in other styles I'd say we would be equal or better fighters.

 

By the time we reach third level in our style which is orange like in karate(but instead of belts we wear t-shirts)we are expected be able to beat a black belt of any style, if we can't,we won't be able to test for next level until we can.Our training is much harder then in traditional for that reason.

 

You say 6 months to a year of training in any open hand martial arts is nothing compared to 4-5 yrs.more,but you say that because you do traditional arts,until you try a mixed martial arts fighting system you won't know the truth.

 

I was never lead to believe that in 6 months I would be a fighting machine,and never was sold,I'm going by my own experience not by what some school told me.I noticed a huge difference in my fighting ability once I stopped doing traditional arts and their katas and started to an art that specifically concentrates on fighting.

 

I don't train for trophies either,I train because I want to keep in shape and also because I love fighting,it's not the trophies that make me happy it's the feeling I get when I go in the ring and do my best.

 

How do you know what you are capable of if you never put your martial arts knowledge to the test? Doing good at katas doesn't let you know that you're good at sparring.Only way to find out is by actually fighting in the ring.

 

If you don't care about the fighting aspect of martial arts then there is nothing to worry about,because in that sense then there is nothing wrong with traditional arts.

 

I'm not assuming that person I fight will be a mindless twit,I am going by knowledge,experience and common sense.

 

No need for those sites,I have read them before and know what they say.

 

It's true Pankration is a sport because of our importance in competition,however some people in Pankration don't compete in tournaments,but because of the way our art teaches they will still become very good fighters.

 

As far as Pankration being designed for a ring environment is not necessarily true.If a pankrationist wants to compete ,which most do ,then yes it is meant for ring because we only fight full contact,which is the way to go.After all on the street there is no pulling back on punches,everything is contact.

 

At same time Pankration is also designed as street-defense.

 

When it comes to a competition,we may change a few things just so we don't kill anyone or send anyone to the hospital permanently,but in class Pankration is taught as a street-defense, with some rules added obviously, either way Pankration and other mixed arts will always be the closest to a real fight.

 

MMA styles have fewer rules then traditional arts,which brings us closer to a real fight.Take away our few rules and judges and you do have a real fight or brawl if you want to call it that.

 

Back to you saying Pankration is a sport,that may be true to an extent but we're also a martial arts.

 

We still follow some of the same rules such as bowing to instructors upon entering and leaving,showing respect to other students,and no starting fights inside or outside of class.But should we be attacked we are taught to fight no mercy,until knockout or until our opponent gives up.

[SevenStar]

Not Today because they would not be succesful unless they changed their training meathods...Everyone knows this including them.

 

However plenty did in the past.

 

which has nothing to do with the TMA of today...

 

 

 

I'm not arguing pro-TMA. I don't really care what is said about TMA being effective, &c. I'm saying those who are studying the martial arts and not some sport will not find themselves in a ring, because they don't care what other people think about them. They don't need publicity, fame, fortune, good advertising, or to prove to themselves that, hey! they can win a contest, because these things are worthless to someone who is out to become a martial artist.

 

you miss the point there, I believe. Getting in the ring is not proving yourself to the world - you are proving yourself to you. I fight because I choose to; I fight becasue I like to continually test myself. I don't give a crap what others think. From testing myself, I KNOW what I am capable of. It's not an assumption that I'm making because my training SHOULD prepare me to do so. From actual experience, I know what I am capable of.

 

All that matters is the crucial moment when your life depends on it. You train and train and hope that day never comes. You are a martial artist because you take the defense of your own life into your hands and put that responsibility into no one eles's.

 

And without any real working knowledge or testing of what you are capable of, you put full confidence in being able to protect your loved ones when the chips are down? I've never shot an M-16, so I can't say that I'd be able to properly use one if I had been sent to Iraq. chances are that I would not have.

 

And as for some people talk and others like to back their talk up, that's the useless drivel of an adolescent mind. Only fools want to prove they're tougher than someone else, not martial artists. You want tough contests go back to secondary school. Martial artists are striving for something higher than that, something more personal and much, much more powerful than simply being able to defeat other people trying to boost their egoes in a ring.

 

Then all TMA should shut up. They do more bragging than the MMA guys. "If a guy tried to double leg me, I'd just sink into a horse stance and do technique X..." "I would Knee him in the head as he shot in..." "It's easy, just punch him in the throat..." But, when they are called on it, either they back down, or get put on their backs... I'm not saying TMA are inferior, but I am saying that I see far more ego and braggarts there than in MMA, and from what I've seen, some of them have no real reason to brag.

 

Now, do I think real martial artists of skill will ever participate in a NHB fight? No. Because it's not upon their path for martial perfection.

 

So anyone who competes in MMA is crossed off of the list of real martial artists? :roll

 

So what if you can beat up a bunch of guys in the ring. All I care about is doing it when it counts for life or death. I am more than confident I can do such. I have proven such and am alive because of it. So, I don't need someone claiming that what they watch on TV is gospel, because frankly, gospel it is not.

 

PROVEN? Real MA don't have to prove themselves... Besides, who was around to see it? was it documented? can you put it online? Exactly. So you proved it to whom? Yourself, right? same reason why I fight - I do it for myself.

[MuayThai Fighter]

You sound like a very angry person.

 

Are you comparing a "traditional" stylist who trains the same amount of say hours per week to a mma stylist? Or are we comparing a recreational practioner to a person who basically lives in the gym?

 

I am not an angry person at all.

 

I am comparing a traditional stylist who trains the same amout of hours per week to a mma stylist.

[MuayThai Fighter]

So Michael Jordan Wastes his Time proving to the world how good he is at basketball?

 

Lennox Lewis is also wasting his Time i guess..

 

So then you view the martial arts as a sport? Here I must agree that we disagree. If you train in the martial arts for sports then you are an athlete. Micheal Jordan played for what reasons? I guess he can only answer that, but I can guess that among other reasons it was for fame, money, and to prove he was the best. Which is the point in sports. There is a winner and a loser. There are points and trophies. Micheal Jordan and Lennox Lewis have nothing to do with what I am saying.

Yes, Royce Gracie wanted to Prove His Family's stlye was effective and he did so.

 

Mas Oyama wanted to Prove Kyokushin was the most effective so he traveled to Thailand to do it against the worlds best.

 

Everyone can talk, few back it up.

 

Like I said, they did it for reasons alien to true martial artists. As for Mas Oyama, the japanese are well known for not taking offenses or challenges to anything domestic lightly.

 

 

Not Today because they would not be succesful unless they changed their training meathods...Everyone knows this including them.

 

However plenty did in the past.

 

some people like to back up their claims...most dont.

 

I'm not arguing pro-TMA. I don't really care what is said about TMA being effective, &c. I'm saying those who are studying the martial arts and not some sport will not find themselves in a ring, because they don't care what other people think about them. They don't need publicity, fame, fortune, good advertising, or to prove to themselves that, hey! they can win a contest, because these things are worthless to someone who is out to become a martial artist. All that matters is the crucial moment when your life depends on it. You train and train and hope that day never comes. You are a martial artist because you take the defense of your own life into your hands and put that responsibility into no one eles's. You are not a martial artist because you want to go into a ring and beat chests against other martial artist so you can, Lo and behold! I'm better than you! My martial art is better than yours! Haha!! Look at me! I can fight!! C'mon! Tell me I'm a good fighter.

 

And as for some people talk and others like to back their talk up, that's the useless drivel of an adolescent mind. Only fools want to prove they're tougher than someone else, not martial artists. You want tough contests go back to secondary school. Martial artists are striving for something higher than that, something more personal and much, much more powerful than simply being able to defeat other people trying to boost their egoes in a ring.

 

Do I think Royce Gracie fought anyone of respectable skill? No. How can I say that? Because I saw those fights. I have been in fights across this vast rock of a planet and I can say those fights were ridiculous to the point of school children jumping on each other and fighting. I don't care if you don't agree with that. I know enough that we don't see eye to eye about certain things. I'm not here to even try to preach to you or even convince you of what I'm saying. So, whether you agree with me or not, is irrelevant.

 

Now, do I think real martial artists of skill will ever participate in a NHB fight? No. Because it's not upon their path for martial perfection. Contests of skill prove nothing. So what if you can beat up a bunch of guys in the ring. All I care about is doing it when it counts for life or death. I am more than confident I can do such. I have proven such and am alive because of it. So, I don't need someone claiming that what they watch on TV is gospel, because frankly, gospel it is not.

 

Then again, I guess it doesn't matter, does it? Because, ol' Royce and all the other NHB guys are in the ring showing off and I'm not. I guess that makes me something less of a fighter, then? Or maybe it means that what I do doesn't somehow really work? Wow! I guess then I should go back to every fight I have been in here in the US and in the jungles of the Philippines and look them over and say, "You know what, TJS is right. Royce knew his *. Boy, was I wrong! Boy, I don't anything about the martial arts unless I compete in a contest."

 

Well, it doesn't matter, really it doesn't. You won't see it my way, and I definitely don't see it yours. But, for me, that's fine. I'm not trying to preach "Follow me!" nor am I trying to convert you to my way of thinking.

 

But I guess that's something you won't see about me. Perhaps you think I'm a stylist? Or a TMAist? Or even a MMAist? How about none? I'm a simple martial artist. I'll let you figure that out for yourself.

 

MA.

 

Forgive the ramblings of a lost soul...

 

So if someone wants to compete and show his worth ,he's only an athlete in sports.HHHHHHMMMMMM,Sounds pathetic to me,why can't a person in martial arts who competes be considered as both an athlete and someone in martial arts?.Basically you're saying competitions are only for sports.

 

So are Lenix Lewis,and Mike Tyson not boxers,just athletes in sports,because they fight infront of the world to prove their worth instead of just training as boxers?

 

Talking about Royce Gracie and Mas Oyama,I guess them showing their abilities to the world doesn't make them martial artists,just athletes in sports.

 

I think Michael Jordan and Lennox Lewis were good points,after all you did say "to prove he was the best. Which is the point in sports. There is a winner and a loser. There are points and trophies. "

 

From what I understand is that proving to be the best and having trophies and being a winner or loser only has to do with sports. Interesting,so UFC ,Sabaki challenge are a cage of men doing sports not doing martial arts.Last I heard these were competitions of martial artists putting their knowledge and experience as well as their style to the test.If this isn't the case then I guess I've been watching the wrong stuff for martial arts.

 

There are winners and losers as well as trophies in several things not just sports.

 

Answer this,do you consider these singers and movie stars who go and get an award athletes?

 

I've never heard anyone compare acting and singing to a sport.

 

You said "I'm saying those who are studying the martial arts and not some sport will not find themselves in a ring".

 

I guess Royce Gracie and Dan Savern aren't martial artists then since they can be found fighting in a ring at UFC,is what you are basically saying.

 

If they're not martial artists,I'd like to see you try and fight them,they'd kick your @ss.

 

But I guess, since fighting is only a sport,I guess you'll never have to worry about that.

 

People who say b.s of true martial artists not needing to fight in ring to prove themselves, only say that as an excuse for not getting beaten up.[/b]

[Drunken Monkey]

[

 

We don't do forms or stupid little drills with partner going across the floor.

 

what was that about not using the word stupid?

 

and it sounds to me that you really do not know what katas are for. to me they are just a dictionary of techniques. a record of the moves that you can perform to keep the technique accurate. i have never been told that you fight like how you perform moves from a training set.

 

no style can claim to be the first to use anything (like elbows, knees etc) because the range in which you are fighting determines the weapon you use. if a dumb 24 year old like me can figure out that much then i'm sure the martial artists of yesteryear would've thought about it too. who is dumb enough to try to punch an aggressor when he is too close to punch effectively?

 

look at it this way. in ancient china the martial arts were mainly used for defence.

 

if the style didn't work the people get killed.

 

if the style didn't work, it wouldn't get passed on.

 

all i can say now is that if after however long you practised karate, you are not capable of defending yourself then either you didn't learn much or you are a victim of mcdojo.