Six months - year of Pankration vs.10+years of asian arts.

[Pacificshore]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again................if you wanna learn to fight and nothing else, then study an art that's all about fighting. If you wanna learn more than fighting, then study any art that offers more than fighting. It could be a TMA or even an Eclectic MA system. It really dosen't matter because as some have already stated it'll come down to how each individual trains.

[aznkarateboi]

Yes, I agree that it the most important aspects of fighting are the individual and the training method. MuayThai Fighter, tell me why you think that you can't use any traditional styles to effectively fight. I agree with sevenstar, its laughable to claim that with just six months of training and in normal circumstances, a new pankration fighter will usually be able to defeat a black belt in a traditional art who has been training for more than ten years. Your reasoning behind this is because the black belt follows a traditional style. Based on what I have read from you, this is your reasoning: Traditional = outmoded and therefore useless for fighting. While Muay Thai is certainly an effective art, your claims are simply outrageous. With all due respect, I would like you to visit this website: https://www.lethalo.com ... you will see that your claims are very similar to that of this style.

[aznkarateboi]

Also I would like you to provide reasoning why it takes a whole ten years for one to be able to use a traditional martial art and just six months for pankration. Also why do you think that traditional techniques are useless?

[AndrewGreen]

Actually I can argue that,because that is where you are wrong,boxing has never been and will never be considered more dangerous then Pankration even in the early Olympics.Boxing may have been around before Pankration,but that I'm not sure of,however I do know the romans were impressed by Pankration at the very beginning because of its various ranges of fighting.

 

I suggest you do some research into this outside of your schools handouts.

 

I have done a fair amount of research into the history of pankration and the information you have is inaccurate based on all of the primary and secondary sources I came across.

 

It was determined by submission, In fact I remember reading one account of a match where the loser submitted and the victor collapsed dead on top of him.

 

Several accounts state that fighters competing in both would request pankration be held first so that they would still be in good enough shape to fight in the other.

You are right Muay Thai originally had nothing to do with Pankration,however there was still fighting from standing up and taking person to ground,adding a few skills by adding MuayThai and Submission Wrestling is what made it as it is today,but the idea still came from the Greeks.

 

The Greeks are the ones that really started organized sport, in a sense we could say that ALL western sport originated with the Greeks. Boxing did, but do Marquis of Queensberry fighters do the same things that Greek boxers did? Not even close.

Perhaps the romans got rid of it eventually in their Olympics but it did eventually disappear completely even from the greeks who invented the art.

 

I can't recall ever reading anything like that. Pankration, as far as I know, survived until the Roman empire.

Another thing you are wrong about is victory was not determined by submission it was determined by death,since it was around the same time as the gladiators,today it is determined by submission.

 

See above.

 

Gladiators matches where often determined by submission as well, not death.

 

It was not the same time, Gladiator games where Roman, Pankration Greek. Pankration came long before Gladiator combat.

Shows how little you know about Pankration.

 

I'd say the reverse is true.

[AndrewGreen]

If you wanna learn more than fighting, then study any art that offers more than fighting.

 

Can you explain this with examples please?

[aznkarateboi]

Traditional arts simply is not a real martial arts,it is without a doubt still an art though.

 

Wait.. you are saying that traditional martial arts are not real martial arts?

[MuayThai Fighter]

Yes, I agree that it the most important aspects of fighting are the individual and the training method. MuayThai Fighter, tell me why you think that you can't use any traditional styles to effectively fight. I agree with sevenstar, its laughable to claim that with just six months of training and in normal circumstances, a new pankration fighter will usually be able to defeat a black belt in a traditional art who has been training for more than ten years. Your reasoning behind this is because the black belt follows a traditional style. Based on what I have read from you, this is your reasoning: Traditional = outmoded and therefore useless for fighting. While Muay Thai is certainly an effective art, your claims are simply outrageous. With all due respect, I would like you to visit this website: https://www.lethalo.com ... you will see that your claims are very similar to that of this style.

 

Okay,without offending anyone I can easily explain this.

 

I believe no traditional style can be used effectively used,because the katas are pre-arranged movements where as in Pankration you learn techniques that are not pre-arranged and all techniques in Pankration are practiced on a person for fighting.We don't do forms or stupid little drills with partner going across the floor.

 

Face it we all love our training and train for different reasons and I respect that, but the fact is we train to fight,traditional arts train in fancy techniques to better improve their katas and for point and semi-contact sparring and like to stick to traditional ways,doing everything the way the masters before them did it,or it wouldn't make sense to call it traditinal arts.

 

After all is kata not the essence of karate and other traditional arts? Last I heard it was.

 

Where as the goal of Pankration and other mixed styles is to fight to submission or knock out.

 

There is a huge difference between training to fight for street or full contact tournament and doing katas, fighting for point or semi-contact.

 

Since we train to fight and in a real situation it's full contact,no pulling back on punches,that's exactly how we practice in Pankration.We're used to getting hit extremely hard and hitting back just as hard.

 

In Pankration fights grappling gloves are used instead of sparring gloves,no shin or foot pads are used and no head gear,just mouth guard,so it makes it a tougher fight and more brutal.It's much closer to the real thing than traditional arts.

 

Also in the katas, punches come from the waist and yet is not done like that in sparring so why practice it.

 

In a sparring match or even in real life you don't have time for fancy kicks and punches as taught in traditional styles.Like in TKD,you wouldn't be able to do one of their flying jump kicks in real life,you'd end up dead.In karate you couldn't use your stances in a real life situation.Go in a shiko dachi (horse stance)and I would either sweep your legs from under you,shin kick you hard,or kick you in groin as hard as I could.But none of that matters in traditional arts because the goal of a traditionalist isn't fighting anyways.

 

Also the blocks of Traditional arts are not very good for actual blocking,it's no wonder people in these arts move side to side,continuously switch legs opposite of their partner ,because most don't know how to block properly, can't go straight in to hit,because of fear of getting hit hard.

 

After all 9 out of 10 x times the way a martial artist, automatically reacts when put in a real life fighting situation is the way they have been trained and since we train to fight it is important to us.Improper training can mean losing.

 

Also in Pankration we do both stand up and grappling,if you only know stand up and taken to ground,you're in trouble.

 

Pankration has more options to use,in Traditional arts knees and shin kicks are not used unless the instructor has incorporated the kicks of muay thai into their system.Kicking with top of foot can be damaging to oneself.Also in Pankration depending on country,you can also use elbows,unfortunately not in Canada.

 

Pankration being the closest thing to a real fight allows a person to shin kick and knee kick full force to both head,face,and body which traditional styles would never allow.We can also take our opponent down and do chokes,arm bars,ankle locks,knee locks,wrist locks,neck cranks etc.and Pankration allows punching to head even when opponent is on ground,basically with Pankration everything goes until person taps or gets knocked out,and all this is done without boxing gloves and head gear.

 

The less rules a martial arts has the more brutal and closer it is to a real fight.Traditional arts has way too many rules limiting their ability to become a good experienced fighter.

 

But as I have previously mentioned fighting/street defense is not important for the traditionalist,even if they do learn some self-defense techniques.

 

For all these reasons,is why as far as self-defense is concerned it takes such short amount of time to learn how to fight effectively in Pankration compared to the 4-5 yrs.of training in traditional arts.

[rb]

You sound like a very angry person.

 

Are you comparing a "traditional" stylist who trains the same amount of say hours per week to a mma stylist? Or are we comparing a recreational practioner to a person who basically lives in the gym?

[Drunken Monkey]

it sounds to me like you know very little of other styles.

 

you say you do not wish to offend but you insist on calling other styles' training methods "stupid" and you have no idea what katas are for.

 

just so that you know, muay thai is not the only martial art in the world that uses knees, elbows grabs, grapples etc etc...

 

maybe you would like to learn a bit more before saying your art is the best, because let's face it, that is what you are saying.

[G95champ]

This is not a fair question because the goals are differant.

 

I can train in anything (type of Combat) for 6 month to a year) and be pretty good. Give me TKD, Kung Fu, Karate, TSD, etc fighting techinques and let me spar and work fighting moves everyday with a good teacher and I will fight as good as any Pankaration guy.

 

However the point is that the traditional art are not about fighting. They are about learning not to fight. I have made this point several times. Not all of us join MA to learn how to bust heads. Thats great if thats why you are here and thats great if you are good at it.

 

Fact in most people who get into traditional arts do not seek to get to this ultimate combat leval. I would say less than 20% of all Traditional arts black belts can hold their own with MMA only because this is not the goal we seek.

 

This would be like me wainting to put a Dump Truck in a street race against you Corvette. Guess what Im not going to win. But if you wan't a load of rocks Im your man.

 

Differant arts focus on differant things. Some focus on more than one.

 

Most traditional arts leave the door open for the person taking it to choose what they want to do.

 

Again the question is true but it is a bad question becasue both are not used for the same thing.