The belt is in the ring

[delta1]

I agree to an extent,you are correct that fighting to the ground isn't the only important thing,I never said it was,however it is the most important thing for true well rounded martial arts fighter.After all most stand up fights eventually go to the ground even in real life.

 

I was talking about fighting standing up, with the ground as an option. And the last three sessions I've spared, i've been dumped hard at least once. I'm on a real roll . All fights don't go to the ground, but enough do. I think we agree here.

Basic skill and knowledge and understanding are important,because if you don't have the knowledge or understanding of techniques you won't be able to use them in sparring not properly anyways and your fighting ability will be limited.However I do believe once you have the knowledge and understanding of your techniques the ring is the only way to prove it.

 

Yes and no. How you fight is one test of skills. But I know some good fighters who don't have a clue about the principles or concepts they are using. Pure instinct honed in real fighting (not the ring) makes the best fighter. But it makes a lousy teacher, unless you too want to learn in the school of hard knocks.

I also believe katas have nothing to do with it and shouldn't even be a part of the martial arts,because proper knowledge and understanding of techniques doesn't come from katas.You can do all the katas in the world,even know the bunkai,and it's going to do crap in the ring.

 

Katas, or forms, have a lot to do with understanding and learning to apply technique. A good form has more layers than an onion. It is one place where you have to think about and sort out all the possibilities of the moves you are doing. With minor variations, any move can do an infinate number of things. If you are just going through the motions for a test, I'd agree that they afre worthless. But that isn't "learning" a form.

To properly learn techniques,they should only be shown and practiced on another person to fully understand the techniques and to be able to apply them properly.

 

Take out the word "only" and I'd agree. To really make a technique work, you have to practice and be able to do it on a resisting opponent. But there are other ways to help learn technique. Doing it in the air, early on working with a compliant opponent, and going full force on a heavy bag or dummy. That brings us to...

So for example if I wanted to teach you how to punch properly,I would show you on a student , then get the students to practice on one another,instead of practicing techniques in the air and going across the floor.All techniques should be practiced only on a partner and once in awhile on shields for power and speed.

...

 

which makes me think we are in some agreement. I just think you shouldn't limmit your training options.

 

 

To be a good fighter you have to know what it is like to hit something,get hit hard and to hit back.

 

Agreed. But you can't do that all the time. Most people have other things to do besides recover from last night's training rumble. Things like jobs, family activities, chasing women... . And some people are older or not that healthy. Learning how to hit and take a hit are important. But everyone has to find their own level of comfort and ability with this one.

Punching,kicking and practicing blocks in air through katas just doesn't cut it for being a good fighter.

 

Not by itself. But it is part of the overall equation.

 

Remember too that the martial arts teach respect, perserverance, and a lot of other character traits. It isn't just about turning out a bunch of tough fighters, even in the reality based schools. And a lot of people take martial arts for a lot of other reasons. I think they short themselves if they overlook the fighting part of their art, but I'm not here to judge them. If they find what they are looking for without steping on the mat, then that's fine by me. I agree that "the ring", or contact fighting, is important. But it isn't the only thing that's important.

 

Good journey!

[Fenris-wolf]

Another poll I'm not voting in. You only give the two extreme points of view. There has to be a well rounded approach to testing that includes basic skills, knowlege and understanding, and fighting skills...

 

Yes, I completely agree. Almost every single poll has left me going "Um.."

 

My opinion on the matter is that full-contact sparring is very important, and that some diciplines (not to offend anybody, I hope) should focus on it more. But it's certainly not the only factor and katas are not "useless"!

 

Full-contact sparring is a must in my opinion, at least as you progress higher in the ranks, because while it's not entirely realistic, it's a really good way of teaching you to think even when you feel overwhelmed, how to deal with the adrenalin (sp??) and fear...

 

Also, I confess, I personally love it!

[delta1]

Also, I confess, I personally love it!

 

Yeah, but you Kiwis are crazy!

 

Actually, I love it too. But it's starting to tell on me some. I don't seem to recover as quick as I used to. I've been limping aroud all week from a hard leg clash (no pads). You'd think I'd learn!

[MuayThai Fighter]

I was talking about fighting standing up, with the ground as an option. And the last three sessions I've spared, i've been dumped hard at least once. I'm on a real roll . All fights don't go to the ground, but enough do. I think we agree here..

 

Yes I agree with you here

 

Yes and no. How you fight is one test of skills. But I know some good fighters who don't have a clue about the principles or concepts they are using. Pure instinct honed in real fighting (not the ring) makes the best fighter. But it makes a lousy teacher, unless you too want to learn in the school of hard knocks

 

I agree,absolutely.There are people who have never done martial arts and still kick the crap out of someone in martial arts,because of real fighting instict,however we're talking about martial here not street fighting,it's a karate forum.

 

Katas, or forms, have a lot to do with understanding and learning to apply technique. A good form has more layers than an onion. It is one place where you have to think about and sort out all the possibilities of the moves you are doing. With minor variations, any move can do an infinate number of things. If you are just going through the motions for a test, I'd agree that they afre worthless. But that isn't "learning" a form..

 

It doesn't take katas to understand and learn how to apply technique.Again it doesn't take katas to sort out the possiblities of the moves you are doing.

 

Well most martial artist do just go through the motions for a test.

 

You can learn techniques on a person and apply them to sparring ,and what a real situation would be like.Practicing with opponent shows you different possibilities of being able to actually use the technique and allow you to create you own possibilities for exact same technique.No one technique has to be applied exactly same way as taught in class or your opponent.

 

In my school we learn several techniques to practice on a partner the way teacher shows it,but then when use it in sparring during class we can use it same way or find a different way of using the same technique for something else.

 

Katas only allow you to see it one ,way because katas are pre-arranged forms meaning everything is already set out for you and always practiced same way.

 

In some karate schools sanchin will always be taught as sanchin it won't be shown in a different form otherwise the kata is no longer sanchin.

 

Take out the word "only" and I'd agree. To really make a technique work, you have to practice and be able to do it on a resisting opponent. But there are other ways to help learn technique. Doing it in the air, early on working with a compliant opponent, and going full force on a heavy bag or dummy. That brings us to...

 

Of course to make a technique really work you have to do it on a resisting opponent,was my whole point ,the whole time. Heavy bag or dummy is mostly for speed,power and practicing a bit of technique,most of the technique is done on a partner.

 

Agreed. But you can't do that all the time. Most people have other things to do besides recover from last night's training rumble. Things like jobs, family activities, chasing women... . And some people are older or not that healthy. Learning how to hit and take a hit are important. But everyone has to find their own level of comfort and ability with this one.

 

I don't understand how it would affect job,what it has to do with recovering from last night's training rumble.

 

I never said anything about beating your opponent to pulp and sending him home with blood or hospital with broken lims.

 

Healthwise,if your health isn't that great then go into something like tai chi which is claimed to be a martial arts,but I actually see it as away of relaxation,but that's another subject.

 

Not by itself. But it is part of the overall equation.

 

You have right to your opinion about katas,regardless what I say it won't change your mind so no point argueing that.Besides I'm not here to change people's minds,only to give my point of view.

 

Remember too that the martial arts teach respect, perserverance, and a lot of other character traits. It isn't just about turning out a bunch of tough fighters, even in the reality based schools. And a lot of people take martial arts for a lot of other reasons. I think they short themselves if they overlook the fighting part of their art, but I'm not here to judge them. If they find what they are looking for without steping on the mat, then that's fine by me. I agree that "the ring", or contact fighting, is important. But it isn't the only thing that's important...

 

Depends who you ask,I believe martial arts is meant as a fighting art,it's supposed to be about self-defense and doing your best and all reality based schools will tell you same.

 

I do agree however that martial arts is also about respect and perseverance and alot of othe character traits.

 

Good journey!

 

Likewise.

[MuayThai Fighter]

The life span of the practitioners will prove nothing, because very few adults out there who started MA training after their teen years will ever get attacked in the street. Consequently, most of them will never really have to use their skills.

 

As far as being in the ring, it's the closest thing available to being able to test your skills in the street, and while they are not the same animal, the skills techniques you learn to apply in the ring WILL transfer into the street - learning how to deal with taking a hit and the adrenaline rush, hitting a fully resisting opponent at full speed, etc. These are things that you WILL NOT learn from semi contact sparring and self defense drills.

 

Bottom line: self defense drilling, full contact fighting, competition, kata, etc. are all smaller parts of a bigger picture. All of them complement, but are not whole on their own.

 

I agree with it all, except for you including kata and semi-contact as the smaller parts of a bigger picture,because I personally think katas and semi-contact are a waste of time.But that's my opinion,I don't expect anyone to agree.

[delta1]

Well most martial artist do just go through the motions for a test.

 

Sadly, I have to agree.

You have right to your opinion about katas,regardless what I say it won't change your mind so no point argueing that.Besides I'm not here to change people's minds,only to give my point of view.

 

Agree again. We've exchanged our opinions, and when it's all said and done, what is important is that we train hard the best way for each to learn. Different people learn differently, so please don't think I'm being disrespectful here. Just presenting a different viewpoint.

 

And yes, the martial arts are about fighting. And Taiji is a serious martial art.

 

Have a good one!!!

[Treebranch]

MuayThaiFighter get off the Kata thing, it's getting old. I study a so called TMA and I've never done a Kata. We train with sparring and full contact with proper gear. We go really light when the techniques can cause damage. Not everyone studies MA's to step into the ring. That's why MA's is so great, you can choose the one that best suits you. I'm an Artist first a MA practitioner second. If I damage my hand I can't draw and I don't eat. Get it. Why would I risk that? So should I not study MA's because I'm not going to step in the ring? That's silly man. Can I handle myself in a street fight, Hell Yeah! So what! That's not why some of us train. The ring proves your good in the ring, Great if that's your goal.

[MuayThai Fighter]

MuayThaiFighter get off the Kata thing, it's getting old. I study a so called TMA and I've never done a Kata. We train with sparring and full contact with proper gear. We go really light when the techniques can cause damage. Not everyone studies MA's to step into the ring. That's why MA's is so great, you can choose the one that best suits you. I'm an Artist first a MA practitioner second. If I damage my hand I can't draw and I don't eat. Get it. Why would I risk that? So should I not study MA's because I'm not going to step in the ring? That's silly man. Can I handle myself in a street fight, Hell Yeah! So what! That's not why some of us train. The ring proves your good in the ring, Great if that's your goal.

 

From what you tell me it doesn't sound like you do Traditional Martial Arts since you have never done kata and always do full contact sparring.

 

I never said if you're not willing to step in ring you shouldn't do Martial Arts,what I did say was that in my opinion katas are useless for self-defense purposes and if that's why you are doing martial arts then the ring is the only way to really test your abilities.

 

Self-defense is why I do martial arts that is why katas are useless to me and why only the ring is any good for me to test my worth.

 

No shit sherlock,of course not fighting in the ring doesn't mean you can't handle yourself in the street,as I pointed out some streetfighters can beat up martial artists because there is a huge difference between a fight for martial arts and fighting for the street.However a person who fights in ring may have a bit of an advantage,but no guarantee he will win,there is no guarantees in life..

 

You're misunderstanding my whole point as people here I feel are.My point is the ring is the closest you can get to the real thing,and best way to test your martial arts.I didn't once say it was exactly the same as the real thing.

 

Besides this thread is about the ring ,so if you don't like hearing anything about the comparisons of ring and traditionalists who do kata then you are in the wrong thread.

 

I started this place to get people's point of view about what I said about the real test being in the ring,and obviously I don't expect everyone or anyone to agree with me.Unfortunately some people get ticked off hearing what I'm saying,and some think I am trying to start a fight.If you don't like my point of view and aren't willing to give yours,whether I agree or not,then go somewhere else,I'm not stopping you or anyone else.

 

This thread would be boring if everyone agreed with me,and didn't have their own opinions, and reason,there would be nothing to discuss.I'm glad some people are disagreeing with my opinion and giving their reasons,just as I have my own reasons,except it or go to a different thread.

[SaiFightsMS]

This thread has gone off topic and there has been some derogatory posting. So I am closing it.