real fight self defence

[aznkarateboi]

Muaythai Fighter, are you implying that arts that are not seen in NHB games are useless for combat? You are sadly mistaken, I have seen several fights at my high school and my friend who is a practitioner of karate beat the crap out of another person who tried to do his "boxing" (he obviously wasn't trained in it, but neither are most people). Also another friend of mine knows kung fu and has gotten into several fights and did well. I know this from watching real fights, not from looking at the advertisement and handouts from my school. Why don't you bother to explain why traditional martial arts suck? How can you accuse others of foolishly sticking up for their art when you bash all traditional styles and provide little evidence for your statement?

 

you get my point

[Drunken Monkey]

That's because tai chi isn't a real martial arts it is just meant for relaxation,spiritual and healing purposes although some claim it as a self-defense,which I find hard to believe.

 

There is no way tai chi can be a fighting art,it's more like a dance but used for relaxation,which is one reason many older people take it.I'm not saying they are the only ones though.

 

well, that just goes to show how much you know doesn't it.

 

and that's just the thing i was talknig about. too many western guys selling it on soft, relaxing form and not knowing about the joint locks and breaks and throws. and despite what you might believe, many of these techniques do not take many years to learn. how can you puch if your wrist is broken?

 

surely YOU have a response to that?

[Martial_Artist]

This just gets more interesting the more I read. I wonder if you are saying that if it isn't in the UFC or any other NHB competition that the art is suddenly rendered useless, out the door, trash in the can, fodder for the herd? Because, seriously, you can't be serious about making such a statement, can you? I mean, honestly, let's think about this. Only the good martial artists compete and win? Only the good martial arts are in the ring? By the heavens, I never knew.

 

I'm going out on a limb here by assuming that's what you meant. I may end up making an a$$ out of myself, but nevertheless I will also end up making a good point regardless.

 

What makes you think that only the good stuff is found in the octagon? What have you seen that tells you only the best martial artists compete in the rings? Or that only the best martial arts are found in the NHB competitions?

 

This is going to be difficult to explain, but as with most things on the interent, take it with a grain of salt.

 

I don't fight in NHB competitions. Never have and most certainly never will. I don't need to. Why would a martial artist fight in a contest? To whom am I trying to prove something? I know what I can do. I know what I can't do. I know how effective my techniques are. I don't need to get into a ring to prove those things to myself or anyone else. I most certainly do not need anyone to tell me how good a fighter I am or how great a martial artist I have become. My self-esteem isn't that weak. I know why I train. I train for combat. I train for the moment I hope never comes: the fight. I train to win in that moment. Everything I do is to win the fight. I don't train to get into a ring and show off. That's not why I train. I don't train to get into a ring just "to prove it to myself".

 

I have survived fights. I have won fights. I don't need a trophy to tell me such. I don't need a magazine carrying an article with my picture in it. I don't need money from schools. I am a martial artist. Plain and simple. I train to fight and I fight to win. Contests of strength and who's got the bigger biceps are utterly meaningless to me. That's not why I am a martial arist.

 

MA.

[Kirves]

I definitely know what I'm talking about did karate for 12yrs.

 

As I already said:

"But most modern styles can't read the kata"

 

The katas are pre-arranged movements of techniques done in air,then there are the drills that are practiced and sparring as you stated but each one is a different part of karate.Drills and free sparring are not part of katas,each one is an individual part of karate.

 

Actually, when one speaks of kata training on Okinawa, one means the whole package. To study a kata, one must read it, train it and apply it. It is a modern misconception that one only performs the kata as a solo form and calls it "kata training". That is called aerobics.

Well if the karate punches from waist work for you it is pure luck,and one day you will run out of that luck.It wouldn't work against most people even against an untrained person.

 

Well, as I already said:

...and think it is used similar to boxing's cross punch and then they wonder why they got smoked."

 

Okay, you got me interested. Explain to me how you were taught to use the punch during the 12 years you trained karate? My guess is, that you were taught it just the way I told

Even when using a punch from karate appropriately,as long as it is coming from waist you leave the rest of your body open as a target.

 

And here it comes! You have no idea how the punch is to be used. When you use it like it is explained in the kata or by your instructor if he is teaching good karate, you won't be open. As I already pointed out, you won't use the punch the way a boxer uses his cross.

I know that however in karate they don't spar that way,but why practice in kata your punches differently from how you would use them in a match or even in real life?

 

Okay... Now I see your point. The standard misconception. I try to explain but feel free to disagree:

 

The reason why it is not used in sparring is because in the styles you don't see it actually forbid grappling during sparring. The punch from the waist is always done while grappling (stand-up). It is not to be used as a punch only. For example, several katas teach it as a finishing punch to the back of the neck, when you are already controlling the opponent with your other hand, from behind or his side.

 

For example: he grabbed (or tried to) you and you broke his elbow with gedan barai. Now you are holding his wrist with your left hand and just broke his elbow with your right forearm. Now comes the punch from the waist: You grab his wrist with your right hand keeping the lock on his wrist, turning him away from you and now you punch with your left hand as directly as possible (without any chambering of the hand) into the back of his neck. Voila - you punched from the waist while pulling the opposite hand to the other waist - just like in the kata. And he's toast. The reason you won't see this in karate sparring is that they don't allow grabbing or punching to the neck or punching from behind. And when he's in the lock facing away from you, you aren't going to be that open when you punch him as directly as possible, unless he knows a counter to the hold - but hey that's how it is with any holds.

 

PS. It is also a misconception that you don't see these punches in NHB matches. I've seen some. Now I don't have any vids so I can't give you exact matches but you do see them occasionally. Usually from fighters who don't do karate at all. I have seen a couple of situations when one fighter has been going down while the other guy has been holding him first with the other hand, then switched to the other hand and punched with the hand that was first holding the guy. There it is, a "reverse punch from the waist" but they even don't notice it themselves because people have been conditioned by these modern no-grappling tournament-karate styles that the punch is done in sparring like a boxing punch. In karate you have two principles that make the punch from the waist logical:

 

Principle #1: When you take a hold of the opponent (a wristlock, grab his sleeve, whatever) you keep it close to your body as your hold is stronger that way - this is why your hand is brought to the waist in the first place.

 

Princeple #2: When you punch, you don't beat around the bush, but your fist travels the shortest, most direct route to the target. Now when you have just held his hand close to you (i.e. your hand is near your waist, ribs or torso) and you decide to release the hold to strike him, your hand is not raised and chambered up near your chin for some boxing type punch but you are to punch directly from where your hand is to the target.

 

Thus, when you incorporate those two principles to fighting where grabbing and holding is allowed, you begin to see several "karate punches from the waist". But if grabbing and holding is not allowed, you won't see this kind of punches at all, just like you had observed yourself.

[Kirves]

My last post became quite long and still it isn't very clear in it's explanations. It is quite difficult to explain these things about karate techniques when people have gotten so much misinformation from the modern styles that are no longer "in touch with their roots" and use kata only as some aerobic exercise and learn a completely different technique set for fighting because they have no idea how the kata is to be studied in the first place. These styles really should do what some styles (like Ashihara Karate) have done: drop the kata altogether. If you can't use it, don't drag it along.

 

The same thing that happened to Tai Chi Chuan (a martial art with lots of full contact training) has happened to Karate. About 70-90% of schools are teaching a modern version of the art that is technically very different from the old version. Then they still drag along some of the old art with them but as the rest of the art is different or trained differently, they can't use what little of the old they are dragging along. It takes some time to find a TaiChiChuan school that teaches it the old way - as an effective MA. As it takes some effort to find a good karate school too.

 

BTW: I myself study a style that doesn't really teach kata bunkai at all, so this is not a rant saying "I do it right and everyone else does it wrong". I have dabbled in some old-school Okinawan styles and know enough about how they do it. But currently I practice a modern style where kata is taught just as a solo aerobic exercise. I don't mind as long as I know this is the issue. I'm there for the full contact sparring anyway. I would like to join the local Ashihara Karate club as they have dropped the old style kata completely from their curriculum, but their schedule doesn't fit with my work shifts, so I take another style with full contact sparring but also the kata that aren't really explained or drilled as meaningful self defence.

[Treebranch]

MuayThaiFighter said

Good point but answer this one question"why would someone want to study an art that would take years before becoming an effective self-defense,if they can learn an art that is effective in just a few months to a year?

 

Same reason some people go to College and get a degree as oppose to going to a Trade School. To gain knowledge. I already knew how to fight before a got into Martial Arts, but now I have a better understanding of it.

[Shorin Ryuu]

It is quite difficult to explain these things about karate techniques when people have gotten so much misinformation from the modern styles that are no longer "in touch with their roots" and use kata only as some aerobic exercise and learn a completely different technique set for fighting because they have no idea how the kata is to be studied in the first place.

 

Yeah, I always thought it was wierd when a school would label some kata (usually new) as their fighting kata and then the others would be traditional kata. Come on! Traditional kata SHOULD be fighting kata!

 

~SIGH~

 

Kirves always beats me to replying to posts and I always feel like I want to say the same thing.

 

 

Also, when you look at kata and someone explains a movement as "chambering" or "preparing for the next move", then 99 out of 100 (if not 100 out of 100) times it means something else...

[Icetuete]

i agree with kirves - u pointed out the main arguments. if only u would not write that much

 

just kidding - keep on with it

[Kirves]

Hehe... I'd love to be able to express myself without having to type so much (ouch, my fingers and wrists!). English is not my first language and that adds to the trouble of trying explain things that I would find difficult to explain even in my first language!

[broomhilda000]

Like everyone is saying there is no best martial art, but some are better for street than others. But each school and teacher differs so you will have to go there and see if they are teaching " street " effective techniques. If you think they are then give them a try if not the move somewhere else. It's all a matter of opinion for example, when someone throws a punch at you would you want to block it then punch or kick them ( then a style like karate or any Hard style would be good for you ) but if you would prefer to flip or arm bar them ( judo would be good for you or any grappling art ) then grappling arts would fit you better. It's all a matter of opinion.