real fight self defence

[Drunken Monkey]

ooooh.

 

tai chi.

 

now this is going to get heated.

 

the problem with tai chi is the fact that there are now hundreds of people who supposedly teach tai chi on the basis of it being nothing more than a relaxation/spiritual/healing/chi/myatical/being human understanding art.

 

these people seem to have no real training in tai chi beyond the froms themselves and don't even know that tai chi is a fighting art.

 

i really can't explain my hatred for them people in a short space and i really don't want to rant too much here.

 

i'm sure you know what i mean though...

[crouton]

i agree with Kirves first post. gave a great example too.

[GreenDragon]

Yes Kirves' post was excellent, his analogy of the military forces speaks perfectly to your issue. The fact is most of them are for different things, and of the ones that are pretty much the same, some are going to be better than others for self defense. But to use his analogy to support your argument, even the worst army is usually better prepared than a group of rowdy peasants with shotguns.

 

The other side of the coin:

 

Another excellent post that I want to expand upon for you here is the one by G95Champ. The "disagree" was with the assumption that anyone trained in any MA has a distinct advantage over the typical street thug or bar-room brawler. To the extent of techniques used, this is true, but there is A LOT more to a real fight than technique. The following quote is one of many excellent points made in this article:

 

http://www.24fightingchickens.com/shotokan/101/06_defense.html

 

"Bad Guys are Very Bad. The bad news is that most of the bad guys out there are bad all day long, every day, their whole lives through. Most bad guys are seasoned experts at intimidation and violence. For them, it's their daily mugging, their regular bar fight that they like to start, or their usual dose of bullying someone weaker than they. For you, it's a once in a lifetime attack that you are praying you will survive. The willingness to do evil and the enjoyment of making others suffer combined with a bad guy's superior experience is usually enough to give him a huge advantage that you will have a hard time overcoming.

 

Let's face it: bad guys are typically poor males with almost nothing to lose. Victims are usually middle or upper class females and males who cannot afford so much as a black eye in the conference room the next morning. The victim who has everything to lose has a mind full of consequences from a proper upbringing. The deck is stacked against the person who can afford karate lessons."

 

Read the article...the bottom line is that regardless of the art you take, you will be better prepared to defend yourself than you were without taking any MAs, so in that respect any martial art is better than none. But it will not always give you an advantage over the bad guy. So if it is self defense you are interested in, it is in your best interest to research and find the art that is not only better suited to self defense than another but is also best suited for you to learn.

 

GreenDragon

[Icetuete]

good thing that we agree @ green dragon

 

good point with the bad guys though...!

[MuayThai Fighter]

My take is that while all martial arts are supposedly "martial" some are more direct than others. Some have many other elements thrown in, while some are strictly "combat" oriented. Some can have sport, spiritual or some other focus as well. Also, many of the arts have the lethality of their techniques "hidden", only to be unlocked after many years of study.

 

As an example, Tai Chi is ostensibly a martial art. However, it would take years (maybe decades) to learn the art to a point of being efficient in defense if attacked.

 

However, when I was in the Army, we were taught certain forms of hand-to-hand training. We didn't have the luxory of years of training to become proficient. We had a few weeks of intensive training followed by semi-regular intensive training during my career. We were not training to become "experts", we were learning a handful of very fundamental, direct and lethal techniques that we could use without hesitation, since hesitation is the kiss of death.

 

That is not to say that those that focus solely on "combat" are "better". They just get to that point quicker. However, many of the other arts, once they get there may actually provide the artist with more answers to any given situation, thereby increasing chances of success.

 

Of course, not everyone (including many instructors) are interested in the self-defense aspect. Again, with profienciency what they teach may be "crossed over", but it takes longer to do that.

 

Good point but answer this one question"why would someone want to study an art that would take years before becoming an effective self-defense,if they can learn an art that is effective in just a few months to a year?

 

For example:in Pankration a person can become an awesome fighter after just a year, infact sometimes only after a few months,since our main goal is learning to fight,so why would someone take an art like karate or tkd,that would take years before becoming effective enough to use as a self-defense?If it is self-defense you want to learn.Wouldn't you want to become a good fighter in a short amount of time instead of waiting forever?

[MuayThai Fighter]

ooooh.

 

tai chi.

 

now this is going to get heated.

 

the problem with tai chi is the fact that there are now hundreds of people who supposedly teach tai chi on the basis of it being nothing more than a relaxation/spiritual/healing/chi/myatical/being human understanding art.

 

these people seem to have no real training in tai chi beyond the froms themselves and don't even know that tai chi is a fighting art.

 

i really can't explain my hatred for them people in a short space and i really don't want to rant too much here.

 

i'm sure you know what i mean though...

 

That's because tai chi isn't a real martial arts it is just meant for relaxation,spiritual and healing purposes although some claim it as a self-defense,which I find hard to believe.

 

There is no way tai chi can be a fighting art,it's more like a dance but used for relaxation,which is one reason many older people take it.I'm not saying they are the only ones though.

[MuayThai Fighter]

I dont get why some martial arts are considered to be better for self defence than others. ok - to a certain extense it might be better to know a good grappling technique or to hit specific point in ur opponents body to make it more painful. but if u know how to kick or to punch well, no matter whether u r a taekwondoin, karateka or whatever u have an advantage over most either half-drunk or no brain just brawn brute force guys. sure - ur opponent might be a martial artist as well and perhaps better than u r. but dont martial arts teach to not use what u've learned to begin a street fight? these fights are more often causes by the not so well teached people.

 

ur answers and opinions are appreciated!

 

Well some techniques just would never work as a self-defense that's why.No offense to TKD practisioners but their high kick would never work in a real situation,just looks cool,by the time they jump and turn they could be smoked in back.

 

A karate punch from the waist is not worth practicing,won't do much good as self-defense.

 

There are several types of punches that will work in a mixed style,like pankration,and shooto where they have the punches of boxing and then kicks and grappling added.

 

My point is some styles are better then others,it's a fact that most martial artists can't face.

 

A mixed martial arts is the best,because it's the closest to a real fight.

 

Think about it,most fights involve punching and kicking but they also end up on the ground,so knowing both grappling and stand up is important.Learning to stay on your feet is good,but so is learning to defend yourself ,should you be taken to ground.

 

When it comes to the real thing,you either kick the crap out of him or he does it to you.

 

To learn how to fight ,you have to fight,only thing that will help is sparring not katas.

 

If all martial arts styles were equal for self-defense you would get several more styles in UFC,but many styles like karate,tkd,kung fu etc.know they'd never last in the ring more then a few seconds.That's the reason only mixed martial artists fight in UFC or Sabaki challenge etc.

 

I know people here who are stubborn will never agree but that's because people don't like to face the facts and will no matter what stick up for their style.

 

With some styles it would take a life time for techniques to be practiced enough to be effective where as with other arts you can become a better figher in a short time,like a year,sometimes less.

 

Well you're right martial arts does teach to not start fights but unfortunately many do anyways.I don't start fights I finish them.LOL

[Kirves]

Good point but answer this one question"why would someone want to study an art that would take years before becoming an effective self-defense,if they can learn an art that is effective in just a few months to a year?

 

Two points here:

 

1. Tai Chi Chuan didn't use to take that long. Age old motto of Tai Chi Quan is "50% health, 50% combat" and it describes how much of your training time should be taking solo exercise and how much should take up your actual combat exercise. The latter part has been discarded in the most popular styles almost completely. There still are schools that teach Tai Chi Quan the old way, meaning every class also includes full contact drills and sparring. I have been to such class and it was a revelation. Tai Chi Chuan is a real self defence oriented kung fu style, when you go to a real kwoon (the training hall of Chinese kungfu styles, like dojo in Japanese) instead of joining the local "Chinese Morning Exercise group".

 

2. The answer to your "Why" guestion: the people who join the Morning Exercise -groups are not insterested in self defence or fighting but health. The modern Taiji health exercise schools are as far away from real Tai Chi Quan - The Martial Art as Tae-bo is from real American Kickboxing. People seem to forget that fact all the time.

[Kirves]

A karate punch from the waist is not worth practicing,won't do much good as self-defense.

 

Especially when one has no idea how it's supposed to be used. I have used it several times in self defence and it works when used appropriately. That's why there's kata in karate, kata is the book that tells you how it is used. But most modern styles can't read the kata and think it is used similar to boxing's cross punch and then they wonder why they got smoked.

To learn how to fight ,you have to fight,only thing that will help is sparring not katas.

 

And this establishes it further: you have no idea what constitutes kata training. Kata training also contains partner drills (yakusoku kumite) and free sparring (jiy kumite). If you didn't know that, then you got your kata/karate instruction from a source who didn't know what they were doing.

[MuayThai Fighter]

A karate punch from the waist is not worth practicing,won't do much good as self-defense.

 

Especially when one has no idea how it's supposed to be used. I have used it several times in self defence and it works when used appropriately. That's why there's kata in karate, kata is the book that tells you how it is used. But most modern styles can't read the kata and think it is used similar to boxing's cross punch and then they wonder why they got smoked.

To learn how to fight ,you have to fight,only thing that will help is sparring not katas.

 

And this establishes it further: you have no idea what constitutes kata training. Kata training also contains partner drills (yakusoku kumite) and free sparring (jiy kumite). If you didn't know that, then you got your kata/karate instruction from a source who didn't know what they were doing.

 

I definitely know what I'm talking about did karate for 12yrs.I didn't always do Pankration.

 

The katas are pre-arranged movements of techniques done in air,then there are the drills that are practiced and sparring as you stated but each one is a different part of karate.Drills and free sparring are not part of katas,each one is an individual part of karate.

 

Kata is the essence of karate,which I find is pointless.Well if the karate punches from waist work for you it is pure luck,and one day you will run out of that luck.It wouldn't work against most people even against an untrained person.

 

Even when using a punch from karate appropriately,as long as it is coming from waist you leave the rest of your body open as a target.

 

I know that however in karate they don't spar that way,but why practice in kata your punches differently from how you would use them in a match or even in real life?Practice the way you would actually punch is the way it should be done.

 

Besides the punches, all karate stances are also useless.