Is Jeet Kune Do better then.....?

[paralax19]

lol, ok...

 

Firstly i meant cross train in Martial Arts, not cross train in the sense of weight training.

 

Secondly i said, bruce was an advocate of full contact sparring in class. Whether students spared out of class isn’t the issue, they didn’t spar in class.

 

You’ll notice i never said bruce lee improved Wing Chun!

 

Also your comment:

 

'And as for "For Him", how does he know he had "improved" on it - he didn't know it all.'

 

Are you actually serious?? If Bruce Lee hadn’t improved how was it that he taught some of the best Martial Artists in America at that time and people paid $300 per hour. Yes he charged $300 per hour, and that was decades ago!

 

Also i did agree with some stuff you said, i actually study Wing Chun not JKD/Jun Fat. I just think Bruce Lee was way ahead of his time and a brilliant Martial Artist.

 

I think people put him down due to the fact that he was a movie star, they think 'well he was a movie star so he couldn’t have been that good a Martial Artist it must have all been hype'

 

If i had a choice to study Wing Chun for a lifetime or JKD i would pick Wing Chun, i just prefer it. I think it is a very deep Martial Art, i think if you studied pure JKD/Jun Fat then you would be missing alot of tools.

 

It annoys me when people for example train in BJJ/Thai Boxing and say well this works me me so il say i study JKD. 80% of JKD is Wing Chun and if you dont study Wing Chun (at least to some extent) while studying JKD you will be missing alot of what Bruce used to teach.

 

And lastly i am not a Movie star worshipper

[Prodigal Son]

Paralax19

 

So when you say 'Cross Training', do you mean the study of different styles in one class ? I think that if you study Judo for 10 mins in the middle of your class, you are just studying Judo for 10 mins - so is that cross training, or lots of short classes in quick sucession ?... Or do you mean different methods - like grappling, kicking, punching during the same class ? Like those Ju Jitsu guys do ?

 

And as for full contact sparring in class, do you mean it in the same way as Muay Thai fighters train, or boxers ? They seem to have been doing it for quite some time...

 

And you can judge someone's ability based on how much they charge per hour ???

 

Sorry to be so pedantic about this - but that's just me - and whilst I respect everyone elses' opinions, I stick with my own on this one: Bruce Lee was a badboy by any standards, and it was he who gave Kung Fu to us western devils and forced us to see how cool it is. Top man.

 

But all we know of him is what we are told by those who make money from his legend, and those stories are quite different from stories told by those who have nothing to gain - do you think his wife, however honest she may be, would say "Well, he was pretty good - but there were better." Or tell us that he got slapped durng the 'challenge' (like the other guy said) ? Nah.

 

There are millions of students all over the world studying nasty martial arts as a way of life. Many of them work on doors and other dangerous places where they regularly fight for their lives - they are not Land Swimmers like many of us on this forum, or Bruce who as far as we know never fought a real fight. Even Gor Sau allows submission, streetfights do not.

 

Most of them, even the best amongst them, will remain unknown to us their whole lives - and that is why we cannot say that Bruce Lee - however good he was - was the best that ever lived. It's like comparing Ali with Tyson - we shall just never know.

 

And yeah, JKD may have made him a better fighter -but again he never tried it as far as we know and it certainly was not an improvement on WC as an art for the rest of us.

 

I think that Wong Fe Hung's dad's teacher's mate would have done him.

 

>>>PS<<<

[paralax19]

This argument could go on forever!

 

By cross train i mean in the sense of studying differernt arts. For example we occasionaly do ground work in our WC lessons, but i wouldnt say we cross train. If you studied BJJ and WC seperatly i would say you cross train.

 

Yeah thats exaxtly what i meant, i.e boxing. But they are western arts. Bruce done it with the Eastern arts.

 

I agree, what you charge does not depict how good you are. But those he trained with went on to become campions. (I cant be asked to look up who where when. I have the detilas somewhere tho)

 

The point you made about bouncers is a fair one. But Bruce was in a different league. I agree there are some MA's that we will never know how good they are. But Bruce made all his training as realistic as possible. Plus im sure its a well know fact that Bruce ws in a lot of streetfights in China.

 

I also never said he was the best!

 

Its a subject i think people just have to agree to disagree!

 

What your WC training like?? Im curious how does it progress? I know its a vague question but im changing schools so im trying to see what different schools are like.

[Prodigal Son]

Yes indeed Paralax19 - this could go on forever, but it won't. It is impossible for anyone to say "this is better than that" without instantly looking foolish, because most of us only know one side of the story.

 

I am sure that for some, JKD is the ultimate 'art' and that they make it work for them, and that there are many WC students who couldn't punch their way through a wet paper bag. And so the moral of the story is that it is down to the individual, not the art. In cowboy terms, whoever is the best shot and the quickest to draw wins - and within reason the type of pistol doesn't matter too much. Waterpistols don't count

 

And my WC training ? I'm so very lucky. One of my best friends is a wicked teacher, and has been teaching me one on one for several years now. Also, he has many brothers - also friends of mine - who are great fighers, and so I get to touch hands with different people and energies most days of the week. My training is holistic, and includes fasting, meditation and internal stuff like Chi Kung. Oh, and untold amounts of Jong and punching ! So in terms of progress, I feel I have progressed very quickly for the time I have been training. If I had spent those years in the third row of a class, i'm not sure how far I would have come by now - but I'm sure I would not be quite so good. (But in terms of comparing myself with my teacher and others in the WC world, I'm still a novice.)

 

How 'bout u ?

 

>>>PS<<<

[paralax19]

Sounds really good! Unfortunatly mine is nothing like that!

 

Its just kinda your average Kwoon, alot of students. (bout 500). You go in mixed groups and the teaching is very 'one size fits all' I assume as your progress it wil become more specific. havent been training all that long.

 

Much prefer another school in the area that focus's a lot more on Chi Sau and sparring. I think in your second lesson you learn one handed stick, its also on a farm so you can go training in the woods etc! Plus the teach BJJ/GJJ & other grappling arts. Their main Sifu is James Sinclair. From what i've read he is one of the best in Europe! Unfortunatly i'm moving to swansea soon so no point changing. Been looking at the schools in Swansea (Wales, UK), no great ones stand out!

 

If anyone knows of any...

[Drunken Monkey]

you really need to train hard in wing chun.

 

you don't get any belts, any prizes, medals or anything similar.

 

the only way of knowing if you are good within your style is in your chi sau and your sparring.

 

if your chi sau is good then your sparring should reflect this.

 

what you've got to remember is that this does not mean that you are an effective fighter. this comes with taking what you have learnt and testing it against other styles. i'm lucky to have a group of friends at university who practice other styles and have had my * kicked on many times and each time i get my butt handed back to me, i learn something new.

[Vyvial]

Bruce was actually in WC for quite a while. But you don't have to eat an entire pizza to discover it tastes bad. The reason Bruce left WC was because it was a style. By definition a style has a certain set of rules. These "rules" are synonymous to "restrictions". Argue all you want guys, you can't say that WC, despite its usefullness, does not have restrictions. Jeet Kune Do, on the other hand, is a lack of style. Unfortunately most people misinterpret his teachings. He stressed that JKD was just a name and meant nothing. True martial art comes from total and true self-expression. Self-expression is hindered by any restrictions (don't confuse getting used to a style with that style being a 100% true expression of yourself. I won't get into my debate on that...). Therefore, in order to study true martial art (your personal art) and not a martial style, you must allow for complete expression without restrictions. Bruce realized the restrictions of any style (WC just happened to be what he was studying at the time) would not allow him to fully express himself. That is why the Chinese characters around the JKD symbol translate into "No Way as Way. No limitations as limitations."

 

Bruce never taught a way of fighting, he explained many times that he only taught someone how to express themselves through martial art. Whatever their expression turned out to be was up to them.

 

Firstly, this a silly question, and some of the answers are even worse.

 

Ther is no such thing as a "better style"! It's different for every individual! I happen to believe that WC is the best for me and have proven that to myself for many, many years. If I ever found something better, I would do it and I have trained in many style of martial arts throughout the years and nothing gave me the freedom that WC has, JKD wasn't even close. All it gives you are fast hands (gunslinger style) with no substance and no stance to back it up.

 

Bruce was with Yip Man learning WC for about four years. Still a beginner by many standards. He was barely past Chum Kiu, he never learned Biu Je, the dummy or any weapons!

 

It's funny that the "style without a style" is falling apart. There is no good way to train it! Bruce could do what he did because he trained the basics of WC! He didn't make it better, he only filled in the gaps that were missing in his training.

 

wc is not a style, it is a theory, a complete system of principles, once you learn Biu Je, the wing chun becomes unrestricted. As long as you follow principle, you can apply any technique in any situation. There are NO restrictions to the advanced wing chun player. There are zero rule in the advanced levels of wing chun. The whole idea of JKD is based on advanced wing chun theory.

 

Real wing Chun is so effective that even Dan Inosanto became a student of my late-Sigung Moy Yat and called him Sifu.

 

check out pics on this page:

 

http://www.moyyat.net/brice/moyyatnet.nsf/moyyat?OpenPage

 

The real reason why Bruce made Jeet Kune Do:

 

http://www.moyyat.net/brice/moyyatforum.nsf/8178b1c14b1e9b6b8525624f0062fe9f/8bdd62d199774f3f86256d8b0027e2e4?OpenDocument

 

In the long run, a typical JKD player will never be able to achieve the same level as a typical wing Chun player (who was taught correctly) because they will lack the foundation that forms lay down.

 

If you don't actually know anything about wing chun, you really shouldn't comment on it.

[Nikkolaiashimon]

All im gonna add is that JKD is not a style, just a theory, so its not really better then anything...its just something to use as you train in martial arts!

[Lazy Scholar]

read Jesse Glover's between wing chun and Jeet Kune Do... and read some stuff from pat strong.. he learned a lot about bruce's personal method in combat (the way he fought) from his good friend hawkins cheung.

[Vyvial]

i have not read that book but i have been wanting to, thanks for reminding us about it