Is Jeet Kune Do better then.....?

[sansoouser]

well, no you see I read an article where Bruce got in a fight and he used Wing Chun the only one he knew and it lasted 20 minutes so he thought it should have only taken him a few punches ( by the way that fight was never revealed as a victory bruce and his wife said he won, the other guy and some people who saw it said he one, the other guy was a northen style master ) so he said it needed more kicks and throws and thus he went to work creating JKD a modified version of wing chun no matter what you call it.

[AndrewGreen]

Bruce has had more bad history written about him then just about anyone...

[Prodigal Son]

If Bruce Lee made another style it meens that he was not that happy whith the one he practiced. Son that meens he made one better. At least for him. With all respect to Wing Chun style that I admire.

 

Oh really ? So Bruce Lee improved a 500 year old art, practiced and modified by hundreds of great masters, before he was 30 ? Even before he had learned the whole system ?

 

If he had 'improved' Wing Chun, then he would have been able to beat Old 'Knife Hands', Wong Shun Leung - but he never did.

 

Everyone harps on endlessly that "Brucey was the greatest martial artist to ever live" - but none of you have anything to support this, other than that you saw him in Enter The Dragon - there are better fighters than him out there TODAY, as there always have been and always will be.

 

I feel I am in a minority on this forum, but it takes a lot more than high kicks and monkey noises to impress me.

 

>>>PS<<<

[Prodigal Son]

Bruce was actually in WC for quite a while. But you don't have to eat an entire pizza to discover it tastes bad. The reason Bruce left WC was because it was a style. By definition a style has a certain set of rules. These "rules" are synonymous to "restrictions". Argue all you want guys, you can't say that WC, despite its usefullness, does not have restrictions. Jeet Kune Do, on the other hand, is a lack of style. Unfortunately most people misinterpret his teachings. He stressed that JKD was just a name and meant nothing. True martial art comes from total and true self-expression. Self-expression is hindered by any restrictions (don't confuse getting used to a style with that style being a 100% true expression of yourself. I won't get into my debate on that...). Therefore, in order to study true martial art (your personal art) and not a martial style, you must allow for complete expression without restrictions. Bruce realized the restrictions of any style (WC just happened to be what he was studying at the time) would not allow him to fully express himself. That is why the Chinese characters around the JKD symbol translate into "No Way as Way. No limitations as limitations."

 

Bruce never taught a way of fighting, he explained many times that he only taught someone how to express themselves through martial art. Whatever their expression turned out to be was up to them.

 

With this argument, all styles are restrictive - and that means that learning martial arts will mess up your fighting ability. which we all know to be untrue.

 

>>>PS<<<

 

When you know all the rules, you can break them. When you do not know all the rules, break them at your peril. (WC saying)

[Prodigal Son]

If Bruce Lee made another style it meens that he was not that happy whith the one he practiced. Son that meens he made one better. At least for him. With all respect to Wing Chun style that I admire.

 

Oh really ? So Bruce Lee improved a 500 year old art, practiced and modified by hundreds of great masters, before he was 30 ? Even before he had learned the whole system ?

 

If he had 'improved' Wing Chun, then he would have been able to beat Old 'Knife Hands', Wong Shun Leung - but he never did.

 

Everyone harps on endlessly that "Brucey was the greatest martial artist to ever live" - but none of you have anything to support this, other than that you saw him in Enter The Dragon - there are better fighters than him out there TODAY, as there always have been and always will be.

 

I feel I am in a minority on this forum, but it takes a lot more than high kicks and monkey noises to impress me.

 

>>>PS<<<

[AndrewGreen]

With this argument, all styles are restrictive -

 

Yes.

and that means that learning martial arts will mess up your fighting ability. which we all know to be untrue.

 

It can, depending on how you train and what you started with.

 

But you'd be better off training what works for you, in all ranges. Not a classical style based on patterns and tradition.

When you know all the rules, you can break them. When you do not know all the rules, break them at your peril. (WC saying)

 

But you can't know all the rules if you play by a restrictive set.

 

Knowing the rules to monkey in the middle does not mean you know all the rules to football.

 

If you want to get good at football, play football.

 

Bruce saw WC as a partial system based on patterns that had become stylized.

 

I agree, it is. That doesn't make it bad, it just means it won't work for what I do. For someone else wanting something different it might work.

[Prodigal Son]

With this argument, all styles are restrictive -

 

Yes.

and that means that learning martial arts will mess up your fighting ability. which we all know to be untrue.

 

It can, depending on how you train and what you started with.

these ideas only apply to arts which are at least 'effective' - we're not talkin about tae Bo.

But you'd be better off training what works for you, in all ranges. Not a classical style based on patterns and tradition.

When you know all the rules, you can break them. When you do not know all the rules, break them at your peril. (WC saying)

 

But you can't know all the rules if you play by a restrictive set.

 

Knowing the rules to monkey in the middle does not mean you know all the rules to football.

 

If you want to get good at football, play football.

 

Bruce saw WC as a partial system based on patterns that had become stylized.

 

I agree, it is. That doesn't make it bad, it just means it won't work for what I do. For someone else wanting something different it might work.

 

I guess it's kinda like driving. To get into a car for the first time and 'be unrestricted by the rules' is a very dangerous game to play. To get into a car, become an accomplished driver and THEN break some of the rules is not so dangerous, because you can correctly asess the risks involved.

 

And Bruce Lee did have a Wing Chun driving licence, but he was not a Team Ferrari F1 driver by any means.

 

i feel that most people mistake 'principles' for rules within MA. I don't punch the way that I punch because it's in 'the rules' - I do it that way because that's what works best for me. Each 'fixed' movement we make has a whole lot of thought and testing behind it - sometimes HUNDREDS of years, and very solid reasons why it is done that way.

 

If all rules are bad, knowing a martial art would be a handicap, not an advantage - and over the years i have found that my 'restrictive rules' have prevented a lot of beatings that have headed my way, and have allowed me to give plenty of them out. Fighters who just 'do what feels natural' and don't have good technique are very easy prey.

 

Also, if you watch two WC fighters, same teacher, same school, you will notice many differences between them as the apply the stuff that they have learned to their own structure etc. i guess this could be said for fighters (good ones, obviously) from any art.

 

I think one of the most dangerous rules in vogue at the moment is "i do it this way because Bruce Lee said so".

 

IMHO Bruce wasn't saying "Don't learn an 'official' style - he was saying "when you have learned it, keep it FLEXIBLE".

 

Repec'

 

>>>PS<<<

[bluez4u2]

Funny how a lot of people have different opinions and misconceptions about Wing Chun. The particular variation of Wing Chun that I train in comes from Leung Ting as taught by Emin Boztepe. The way we look at it is that it is not a style or method. To us it is a very conceptual art that when learned can adapt to any individual and any situation. That was Bruce Lee's goal with JKD but now a days we have all these people just mixing different martial arts just for the hell of it. They have no continuity. The Wing Tzun that I train in has everything that Bruce Lee ever wanted in a fighting art. If all these JKD guys would get smart, they'd come learn some Wing Tzun and realize that what they want has been right under their noses all these years. It will never happen though. JKD is a money making cow associated with Mr Bruce Lee and they don't want to get their bubble burst.

[paralax19]

Firstly,

 

Prodigal Son, before you make some half baked comment on how you need to see evedence about how great bruce lee was go and read about him. All the evedence is there, im not wasting my time explaining it to you.

 

Now when 'yireses' wrote about how bruce lee improved the art you seem to miss the bit that said 'for him', its subjective. why argue? He didnt say he made a better martial art than WC.

 

Next, not been able to improve a 500 year old art?? I think that is one of the most ignorant comments i've seen on MA boards. Of course you can improve arts that have ben around for centries. Times change, arts should change with them.

 

That said and done i agreed with some stuff you said, however i think your overlooking something.

 

Your comments on how you learn WC are exactly the approch Bruce Lee was adcocating, however now they are taken for granted. When Bruce Lee studied cross training was a taboo, like many other aspects. The way of the art was the way you done it, period. A lot of what Bruce Lee was trying to fix has been fixed. But now people are trying to fix things that are fixed. People now cross train, spar and train flexibly.

 

The greatness of Bruce was the he was the first to do these things, he cross trained, weight trained introduced full contact sparring and gave a personal approch to the way we learn MA. Appreciate that! Thats where his greatness lies!

 

bluez4u2: I quite liked your post untill i got half way down, you obviuosly have no clue about JKD! You study Emin Boztepe wing chun, have to say that worked wonders aginast William Cheung in Cologne Germany.

[Prodigal Son]

Prodigal Son, before you make some half baked comment on how you need to see evedence about how great bruce lee was go and read about him. All the evedence is there, im not wasting my time explaining it to you.

 

Fistly mate, it is never half baked to ask for evidence. It's called "not being a sucker". Secondly, as a WC practicioner and 20 year martial artist, could it be possible that I have enough interest in Brucey to actaually read a little about him ? To collect his movies, and even have a poster of the dude in my training area ? Kinda likely, I'd say.

 

In answer if WC can be improved over time, I'll quote Bruce himself "As long as people have two arms and legs, they will fight the same way...". I'm not saying that it CAN'T be improved - I'm saying ask a WC Sifu if Bruce Lee has improved on his art, because we only hear that one from martial artists of OTHER styles. Usually those who wouldn't know anyway.

 

And as for "For Him", how does he know he had "improved" on it - he didn't know it all. (I really have GOT to stop saying that - I'm boring myself with it now...)

 

Anyway - so people didn't Cross-Train until Bruce Lee came along? Oh really ? So what about the hard physical labour that they did ? Miles of walking, running, swimming ?

 

Come on. Just because Karate-Do-Kyohan doesn't say "And on Tuesdays go to the gym and do 20 mins on the stepper" doesn't mean that people have not understood where to find training opportunities in their day to day lives for centuries. Carrying your shopping should be cross traing, or you are wasting time.

 

And aside from that, are you telling me that even oldschool Karate-ka in the stiffling stiffness of ancient Dojos weren't sparring after class ? If so then you will be displaying an ignorance of the nature of true martial artists. It is impossible to not spar if you are a fighter - because then you are a dancer. As a small child I used to practice fighting with my friends - LONG before I read Tao of JKD and learned that it was actually okay to spar up. but nobody else was doing it, you say ?

 

Those who actually understand Bruce Lee listen to him when he says "Take the stairs, stand on one leg when you tie your shoes" etc. Do you honestly think that he was the first person to figure that out ? Jeez.

 

Movie star worshipper.

 

>>>PS<<<