bujingodai Posted June 7, 2003 Posted June 7, 2003 I have only studied Ninjutsu, I have dabbled for a seminar or two in other arts in my life. But yet still only Ninjutsu, I haven't the time to study anything else. But I was wondering what is the outsiders view of the art. I have met many who think it is bunk, others know very little about it.
Kamidake Posted June 7, 2003 Posted June 7, 2003 I think Jinenkan is considered ninjutsu. After my vast experience (one whole month!), I can say it's fun, seems practical, seems well thought out, and still makes my butt hurt something fierce.
Kirves Posted June 7, 2003 Posted June 7, 2003 (edited) Jinenkan, as I have understood it, has very little actual ninjutsu. It is mostly koryu based bujutsu. It's curriculum doesn't contain the same set of ryu-ha (sub-styles) as Bujinkan, thus even they contain mostly identical methods, they don't have the same syllabus. Basically, I believe it makes more sense to study bujutsu than ninjutsu if self defence is being concerned, because the old ninjutsu methods mostly cover stuff that isn't really that useful in a street confrontation. For example, the Bujinkan curriculum contains three so called "ninja" ryu-ha, but their input into the whole of Bujinkan Taijutsu, is not that great. Most of Bujinkan Taijutsu is just koryu bujutsu - and that's a good thing. Here is a link to the Jinenkan ranking structure up to fourth dan black belt: http://www.jinenkan.com/Rankreq.htm Notice, all the techniques also list the sub-style (the ryu) from which it comes from. Very little techniques from any ninja ryu in there up to fourth dan... Actually, there are none! The ninjutsu ryu-ha of Bujinkan and it's derivatives are Togakure-ryu, Gyokushin-ryu and Kumogakure-ryu. Don't see much of techniques from those in the rank requirement list... Edited June 7, 2003 by Kirves
Kamidake Posted June 7, 2003 Posted June 7, 2003 I stand corrected. Thanks. I know what the bujutsu are, but what's koryu?
Kirves Posted June 7, 2003 Posted June 7, 2003 Koryu is "old-school", a school founded before the bushi warrior class lost it's power. That is, a school founded when there were still battles in Japan. Some people believe the koryu styles are more realistic because their methods have seen real battlefields. The opposite of koryu is gendai. Gendai budo means the modern styles that have not had the "pleasure" of being tested on numerous real life battlefields. Usually gendai budo means either a style that is more concerned about spiritual advancement than combat realism (aikido is often cited as an example) or it means a modern tournament sport style (like many modern karate styles that mainly focus on tournament sparring).
Kamidake Posted June 7, 2003 Posted June 7, 2003 Koryu sounds like the way to go for those of us who are mainly interested in the practical applications of all this. People who are mainly interested in the sporting applications should probably look for gendai. That's a useful distinction to know. Thanks!
Kirves Posted June 8, 2003 Posted June 8, 2003 There are also gendai arts that are self defence focused, so though the disctinction is good to know, it is not always that simple to judge an art's effectiveness.
Treebranch Posted June 8, 2003 Posted June 8, 2003 So Kirves are you saying that Togakure Ryu Ninpo Taijutsu is less effective because it teaches things that you feel are no longer useful? Sounds like opinion to me. Ninpo Taijutsu was battle tested and Ninjutsu in modern times gives one a greater edge than just bujutsu. It all depends on why you are studying this stuff. It is the most effective and elusive MA I've ever studied. I've studied TKD, Lima Lama, Kung Fu San Soo(A Brutal Style) and Budo Taijutsu which I find covers every possible scenario. Our training is based on Modern fightiing and how to counter them using Taijutsu. The human body has not changed, therefore the techniques effects the structure of the body the same way it did in antiquity. This stuff is effective and most of all very fun to learn. We have self defense based techniques as well as attack based techniques as well as submission techniques, it all depends on how you want to use this stuff. Ninjutsu if it's Togakure Ryu Ninpo Taijutsu is awesome, I recommend it to anyone who has the patience and dedication to learn one of the most complete fighting arts being taught today. "It is easier to find men who will volunteer to die, than to find those who are willing to endure pain with patience.""Lock em out or Knock em out"
Kirves Posted June 8, 2003 Posted June 8, 2003 So Kirves are you saying that Togakure Ryu Ninpo Taijutsu is less effective because it teaches things that you feel are no longer useful? No, you misunderstood (or I explained badly). If you look at the taijutsu kata that comes from Togakure ryu, they aren't really about fighting, but more about fleeing a fight. Of course they are good stuff and battle proven, but if you want to "learn self defence for the streets" it is my opinion that one should first learn the basics of fighting. Togakure tactics already demand a good command of taijutsu basics of fighting. Even in Bujinkan, Togakure tactics are only taught as advanced studies when the student is already highly skilled in normal taijutsu fighting. They supplement it well, yes. But to start studying Bujinkan and say "I'm learning ninjutsu for self defence" is highly inaccurate in my opinion. You are learning taijutsu (/jutaijutsu/jujutsu/koppojutsu...) and later as an advanced black belt you learn ninpo tactics too but only after paying your dues studying the taijutsu kata of the bushi ryu-ha. To make this simple: look at the Jinenkan kata taught up to 4th dan. There are none from Togakure ryu. If some where being taught for the mudansha they probably wouldn't even appreciate them really. But if you take a Jinenkan 4 dan and teach him Zanto tonko no Kata from Togakure ryu,he will "see the light" and become a much better fighter. But teach Zanto tonko no Kata to a white belt novice and he doesn't really have a clue what to do with it. Did this clear or further obscure my point?
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