Wing Chun History

[Drunken Monkey]

it's something to do with where the knives came from.

 

i'll try to find the source.

 

as for the wing chun knife set, it is also said that miu hin taught the knife set to the wing chun people.

 

this would suggest that it was, like the pole form, something that was brought from outside the original training.

 

the miu hin story doesn't work for me because the principles and moves of the knife set are almost the identical to biu gee. i cannot see how an external knife set would match biu gee so closely.

 

even if it was modified to suit wing chun, would a classical old master allow his prized knife set to be modified?

[paolung]

it all just reeks of old chinese story telling...

 

please elaborate, what do you mean by this statement?

[Drunken Monkey]

as for where wing chun came from.

 

i firmly believe that it was developed on the boats.

 

cheung ng was the guy who started the red junk opera boats. he was noted for his martial skills (especially his tan sau, a move that is almost exclusive to wing chun up to that time period) and he taught on the boats.

 

the forms do not move and flourish like the old styles because the training was done on the boats (narrow in nature) and the stance was designed to train stability and hence strength) on the boats.

 

so it wasn't a case of them seeing the need to train for use in tight alleys but just a case of training in their environment. the fact that it suited the alleys is secondary.

 

as for cheung ng himself, he lived almost 100 years before the story of yim wing chun and about 50 years before the supposed burning of the temple.

 

i would add though that he WAS noted for his shaolin skills but he was not a monk.

[Drunken Monkey]

just take the stories of the other style's histories.

 

there's a wing chun in the hung gar stories and a wing chun in our history and there was a wing chun hall in shaolin and it there's an anti ching saying containing the words wing chun...

 

it's a hell of a lot of wing chun.

 

too many to be coincidental in my opinion.

 

i think that "wing chun" was like a call sign, much like the ming hand symbol/gesture, used to identify fellows.

 

i also think that the yim wing chun story was created to hide the identities of the senior people (in the training/developing) of the style. after all, if the founders were people who never existed, how can you find them?

 

this is important when it meant your life if you were even connected to the anti-ching movement.

[pvwingchun]

cheung ng was the guy who started the red junk opera boats. he was noted for his martial skills (especially his tan sau, a move that is almost exclusive to wing chun up to that time period) and he taught on the boats.

 

You are simply stating legend, there is no historical eveidence that he had anything to do with WC. We know he existed and was an opera member but it is awfully convenient that his name was also Tan Sao Ng. Some people believe he got that name because he was crippled and his arm was in that position due to paralysis. I am trying to seperate fact from legend. As for the time lines they are not that accurate. And some histories do portray him as a monk. There are as many stories about him as Ng Mui or Yim Wing Chun. Is it possible that they are one in the same and the legend was created to hide his identity?

 

Depending on whose history or teachings or research you believe will influence your story. The truth is no one knows for sure the history. I have been incontact with people who have done some research that believe none of the legends and that WC atcutally developed in other ways with different characters.

 

I have also read that the southern styles were developed for stability in the terrain in which they must fight. Wet, slick, muddy hillsides and paths therefore the need for good stable footwork. Which wuld so happen to translate into use on the boats. So you see there is no definitive answer. FWIW there are no historical records of the time which limits our understanding of the time.

 

What of Jee Shim did he exist or not? And what were his contributions?

 

As for women most of what I find says yes they were present in the temple.

[Drunken Monkey]

it is not and he is not legend. there are records of his exisitence and of starting and organising the red junk opera boats.

 

personally i haven't come across anything saying he was crippled.

 

but yes, the "five" stories, to me, seem like a story to hide the identies of the high ranking members of the anti ching rebellion.

 

if this is the case then the stories have no real bearing on the origin of wing chun as a style as the characters then become arbitary. you cannot say that yim wing chun and ng miu and cheung ng are the same person.

Edited June 11, 2003 by Drunken Monkey

[Drunken Monkey]

as for southern styles being developed for the stability on a certain terrain. while this a very rough generalisation wing chun still stands separate from the other southern styles such as hung gar, choy-li-fut, lee gar etc etc...

 

take wing chun's closest neighbour, hung gar. both were developed in futshan, both were heavily involved with the anti-ching rebellion yet hung gar does not have a stance that is remotely like the yee gee kim yeung ma.

 

hung gar trains in the older way featuring sets that move in all directions yet wing chun moves, at most, three steps to one side.

[pvwingchun]

The red junk opera started in the mid 1500's. Therefore Cheung Ng could have had nothing to do with the devevlopement. Yes he existed but his contributions to WCare dubious at best and only legend. He may have performed "opera" martial arts. He was in the opera. records show he existed and was a great influence on the opera his exact skill as a martial artist is unknown. Therefore his connection to WC is strictly legend. No one knows for sure.

 

 

but yes, the "five" stories, to me, seem like a story to hide the identies of the high ranking members of the anti ching rebellion.

 

if this is the case then the stories have no real bearing on the origin of wing chun as a style as the characters then become arbitary.

 

Why do they become arbitrary and have no bearing? If Ng Mui was created to hide the existance of Cheung Ng or someone else then we "simply" need to determine the origin of the legend and put it in perspective.

 

As you believe that some of those who were supposed to exist seem to coincidental, I do also about the contributions of Cheung Ng. It is too much of a coincidence that he was also named Tan Sao Ng. There are many stories as to the origin of that name. One being his martial ability the other of paralysis of the arm to him being a beggar with his hand out. Plus if he and his contributions were known why don't we know of others of that same time frame who either learned or were connected to him. Why the gap in the timeline.

 

Again I have read in the history of Shaolin that the southern styles such as WC were developed for stability in the terrain in which they must fight. Wet, slick, muddy hillsides and paths therefore the need for good stable footwork. This along with the configuration and architecture of the cities of the time and with the temples being a central place of rebellious activity it seems more likely that WC developed in the temple and spread from there, for one to the opera boats for further developement. There is much anecdotal evidence from the temples themselves to suggest this.

 

And how do you explain the differeing lineages that have lines back to the temple such as Jee Shim Wing Chun. Who is believed to have been a major contributor.

[paolung]

I have personally never heard of (nor has my sifu) of the "ming princess" angle of Ng Mui, pvwingchun, could you please elaborate on this? thanks

[pvwingchun]

A common thread throughout the histories is the developement of WC to be effective against other styles of known martial arts and military fighting methods of the time. Therefore it would stand to reason that it would be different than other southern styles.