Rich_2k3 Posted June 25, 2003 Author Posted June 25, 2003 Guys I hear u saying "well karate was originally used for this or for that" remember this isnt just about karate, ancient arts like kung fu are going the same way, they too have lost the spiritual side. This discussion goes further than just one art, martial arts in general has lost somthing. What do you guys think about kung fu or juijistu for example? have they lost it? "When my enemy contracts I expand and when he expands I contract" - Bruce Lee
Kirves Posted June 25, 2003 Posted June 25, 2003 The "spiritual side" was added to karate by the Japanese. The whole idea of Budo is japanese. The suffix -do was added to karrate after it was introduced to Budo. The -do stuff, like budo, is based on Zen Buddhism, which was very unpopular on Okinawa prior to the Japanese influences. The old karateka didn't train for zen, they trained for self defence. That is clear from any books that research Okinawan karate history, like those of McCarthy, Bishop, and Jalamo (who sadly hasn't written in English). And Jujutsu... Jujutsu was the art of the bushi, the samurai, and as such they followed Bushido. Bushido can't be followed today (well, it could, you'd just have to kill yourself as the feodal emperor is dead ) - Bushido was the warrior code for the warriors of the Bakufu and it was no longer practical when the Bakufu fell. Bushido essentially dictated that your life belonged to the Bakufu and that's it. After that, Zen was becoming more and more of a focus in bujutsu circles and people started to turn it into Budo. This is what Draeger calls "The Classical Budo" (=koryu budo). This kind of budo for example didn't like competing at all, it was totally focused on living in zen. Then during the 20th century, the new competition arts sprang out, karate, judo and the like, with all new ideals vaguely related to the old zen budo, and this is what Draeger calls "Modern Budo" (=gentai budo). So, there are many levels to Budo, and karate existed for centuries, before the Japanese Modern Budo was introduced to it.
evil_xerox Posted June 27, 2003 Posted June 27, 2003 The tradition and spirituality still remains in Karate it is just the student that does not pursue it. I beleive that the traditional Arts hold their traditions and the instructors from those clubs have the responsibilty of holding the traditions. I think it is the students choice weather to follow the spiritual way of Karate but this usually means a solid integration of Karate into your lifestyle. Things are only how you perceive them so try to see things positively
mArTiAl_GiRl Posted July 1, 2003 Posted July 1, 2003 That and it depends on the instructor too. Kill is love
Shorin Ryuu Posted July 8, 2003 Posted July 8, 2003 A good book on the history of karate is Okinawan karate by Mark Bishop. The Classical Budo and Classical Bujutsu that are written by Draeger and mentioned in Kirves earlier post are good as well. Martial Arts Blog:http://bujutsublogger.blogspot.com/
mArTiAl_GiRl Posted July 9, 2003 Posted July 9, 2003 Yes, Kirves has a good philosophy. Funny to think about, that Kirves lives in Finland, near to Estonia, where I live. Kill is love
isshinryuka Posted July 9, 2003 Posted July 9, 2003 As a Christian, I made sure that the school I joined would not promote zen. I have already chosen the path for improving myself as a person. I chose to train as a karateka to be able to protect my loved ones and increase my level of fitness, not to get on the enlightenment trail. There are certainly people in my dojo that can choose to pursue that for themselves, but our instructors are not promoting it. I wonder if this message string is to Western-centric. Does anyone have experience as far as training in the Far East to know if the spiritual influence is more pervasive over there? My guess is it would be a larger part of their training than it is here just because of our cultures.
Rich_2k3 Posted July 10, 2003 Author Posted July 10, 2003 I see your point isshinryuka, I think the spirtitual side of martial arts has strong connections with the buddhist religion, the buddhist religion does no worship a god, it is a path of enlightentment and helping you to become a better person. I think in the east martial arts when it was formed sprouted connections with this religion because people in that region were part of budism also. This has traveled to the western world through movies and because of that the real spiritual side has been shrouded somewhat. I think if u were to follow this idea of zen and self enlightenment along side your christian beliefs then it would be like following two religions. "When my enemy contracts I expand and when he expands I contract" - Bruce Lee
Kirves Posted July 10, 2003 Posted July 10, 2003 Has karate lost something? Read the text by McCarthy at this link: http://groups.google.fi/groups?dq=&hl=fi&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&group=sfnet.harrastus.itsepuolustus&selm=894e4a66.0307092033.60cfba89%40posting.google.com
Shotokan_Fighter Posted July 11, 2003 Posted July 11, 2003 krives i read that text, that was a good text. "When I fight, I fight with my heart,and soul. My heart, and soul is Shotokan Karate."Shotokan_fighters creed"karate has to come natural in a fight, if you have to think about using karate in a fight, you will loose the fight"3rd kyu brown belt - shotokan karate
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