Rich_2k3 Posted June 3, 2003 Share Posted June 3, 2003 Has the spiritual side of karate or any martial art been lost nowadays, I mean is it all just self-defence and sport, what about self harmony and discepline. I just think some of the tradition of karate or any martial art has been lost somewhere. "When my enemy contracts I expand and when he expands I contract" - Bruce Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mArTiAl_GiRl Posted June 3, 2003 Share Posted June 3, 2003 Good question. Yes, nowadays the spiritual side is a bit lost, people pay more attention to competing and sport. It is very important, that the instructor teah the karateka's both sides: the spiritual and the practical side. You know, karate came from kung-fu actually, and the japanese changed it all. Before the change of the meaning of karate, karate had a spiritual side too, but it has disappeared with the years. Kill is love Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirves Posted June 3, 2003 Share Posted June 3, 2003 This is a bit difficult question... First of all, the Okinawans did not stress zen or budo philosophy with karate (uchinadi, toudi, whatever). Budo as such is purely a Japanese (mainland that is) thing and got added onto modern karate styles during the last century. That is when karate-jutsu ("Chinese hand method") became karate-do ("Empty hand way"). There are several schools that still teach karate pretty much the "old way". Yuishinkai Karate-Jutsu is relatively new organization but it's goal is to teach karate with the older "jutsu" mentality. Seibukan Shorin-ryu Karate-Do teaches karate mimicking the exact way Chotoku Kyan taught it, thus it is very "old-school", non-competitive kata-bunkai style of school but has taken the budo philosophy into it's ideals too. It all comes down to where you go to study karate. These two were just samples. I know some Seibukan students and instructors and I know they are the real deal. Okinawans did stress the need for good behaviour and being a man with a moral spine. They called this being a bushi. While bushi literally means a warrior, it wasn't used in the same context as in the bushi-era of mainland Japan. The Okinawans thought a bushi was a Gentleman, a good person of good nature, helping others and being a generally good example for others to follow. One thing is certain, too many karate styles have lost the bunkai-skills and knowledge almost altogether. Many styles teach dozens of kata but either no bunkai, or very limited and superficial bunkai only, most focusing on tournament kumite. Sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewGreen Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 Has the spiritual side of karate or any martial art been lost nowadays, I mean is it all just self-defence and sport, what about self harmony and discepline. I just think some of the tradition of karate or any martial art has been lost somewhere. No, spirituality can be found in anything if you approach it that way. Here is a quote from Matt Thorton on that "You don't think you miss the spiritual part of all this when you take such a functional approach? No, I think its the opposite. I think you miss the spiritual part of all this when you follow a Sifu and bow to ritual. The spiritual journey in all this exists in the DOING... the action of it. The actual doing... not the certificate, not the new techniques of it, not the talking about it, not the organization of it, not the certification of it, not the demonstration of it... NO... in the doing of it... thats where the spiritual aspects are. Its the heroes journey as outlined by Joseph Campbell. You have to have the balls to stand on your own, and face your demons. We do that through the environment created by resisting opponents. The more functional, the more contact, the more likely you are to confront your own ego. When their are no Sifus, no one can remain aloof. Everybody must step on the mat in front of others and show what they can actually do. For real... not a demonstration... but for real. You must tap out, get hit in the face, get tackled and kicked. We all do. We all must. We all meet our own ego. Thats the beginning of the spiritual journey. You see... do you understand? The rest is hippie bullshit. They may use semantics that sound spiritual... but its all hypocrisy. You cant fool yourself... they become bitter. Better to be honest and just train. " I think he is wrong in part, at least for some people. Monks find spirituality in following. It depends on your belief system and what you believe to be spiritual. If that means following something blindly, go for it. If that means not following anyone and doing things your way, go for it. But really if you want spirituality as a primary goal, go to a church, not a sport or cultural art. Andrew Greenhttp://innovativema.ca - All the top martial arts news! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shorin Ryuu Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 This is a bit difficult question... First of all, the Okinawans did not stress zen or budo philosophy with karate (uchinadi, toudi, whatever). Budo as such is purely a Japanese (mainland that is) thing and got added onto modern karate styles during the last century. That is when karate-jutsu ("Chinese hand method") became karate-do ("Empty hand way"). There are several schools that still teach karate pretty much the "old way". Yuishinkai Karate-Jutsu is relatively new organization but it's goal is to teach karate with the older "jutsu" mentality. Seibukan Shorin-ryu Karate-Do teaches karate mimicking the exact way Chotoku Kyan taught it, thus it is very "old-school", non-competitive kata-bunkai style of school but has taken the budo philosophy into it's ideals too. It all comes down to where you go to study karate. These two were just samples. I know some Seibukan students and instructors and I know they are the real deal. Okinawans did stress the need for good behaviour and being a man with a moral spine. They called this being a bushi. While bushi literally means a warrior, it wasn't used in the same context as in the bushi-era of mainland Japan. The Okinawans thought a bushi was a Gentleman, a good person of good nature, helping others and being a generally good example for others to follow. One thing is certain, too many karate styles have lost the bunkai-skills and knowledge almost altogether. Many styles teach dozens of kata but either no bunkai, or very limited and superficial bunkai only, most focusing on tournament kumite. Sad. Yay! Someone who sees things in the same way that I do!!! Martial Arts Blog:http://bujutsublogger.blogspot.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordosan Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 sorry for my ignorance, I heard many times about spirituality in karate, can anyone explain this to me with examples ? what one means when he refers spirituality in karate ? maybe it is the hard training that teaches you self discipline ? but if so many things in life does and they are not referred as spiritual... I also hear "when you will get there after many years of practice, u will understand", but I am curious now , any hint from the experienced guys ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mArTiAl_GiRl Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 Well, actually, there is a spiritual side in karate, but it totally depends on the Sensei, the instructor. If he doesn't know anything about that, then his pupils won't know either, and so the pupils think, that such 'spiritual side' doesn't exist in karate or something. My swedish Sensei was a very philosophical and wise man, he used to explain things to the pupils by doing it by talking philosophically, and it was interesting to hear that. And the pupils acted themself more like the true karatekas too. One Sensei I had in Estonia once, he was a: McDojo Sensei, well, that kind of Sensei and he never ever said anything or didn't even mention karate's other side, the spiritual way of karate. And I was so surprised, when I saw how the pupils acted, they didn't know anything about it either, and the meaning of karate was completely lost. That was actually sad to see... because I was used with another way of teaching, like my swedish Sensei did, that's why I miss his Minkamai Karate Dojo! ... Kill is love Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirves Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 If you follow the budo philosophy, then you are supposed to try and make yourself a "better person" everyday for the rest of your life. You should try to avoid hurting others and solving issues with violence. This is the "short version". If you want the long version, read some of the books written about budo. There are numerous books about it, yet none of them can explain it throroughly, you must live it not read about it. I always liked Chuck Norris' book "The Secret Power Within". It gives a glimpse as to what it might be to live budo. But yet cannot explain it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mArTiAl_GiRl Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 sorry for my ignorance, I heard many times about spirituality in karate, can anyone explain this to me with examples ? what one means when he refers spirituality in karate ? maybe it is the hard training that teaches you self discipline ? but if so many things in life does and they are not referred as spiritual... I also hear "when you will get there after many years of practice, u will understand", but I am curious now , any hint from the experienced guys ? Discipleship is very much like spiritual conversation in that its successful practice is totally dependent upon the willingness of the convert, as well as on the absence of coercion by the master. Why some Sensei's use to say: "when you will get there after many years of practice, you will understand", is because they are trying to say: be quiet, be patient, trust in your commitment, and train faithfully and when you have done that for many months, or for many years, depending on your commitment and maturity, you will understand, that there is no shopping mall one can visit to find the worthy master, no department store offfering easy payment; no plastic is accepted, only the hard coin of diligence. And it must be this way. Because the most important prize of all is: the authentic master, revealed through mindfulness, modesty, spiritual purity, compassion, unselfishness, impartiality and a capacity to love and be loved. It means, that you will understand, that you don't get things quickly and too easily, it depends on how you train, not the number of days you have trained. The quest is never to capture a bunch of fighting techniques and technical terms, rather the quest must always be: to open your mind and your heart to the essence, to the art of living. In conclusion, it means, you will understand the point of karate by many years of training. Hope you understood. Kill is love Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordosan Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 you are supposed to try and make yourself a "better person" everyday for the rest of your life. You should try to avoid hurting others and solving issues with violenceI agree with every word, but why do I need karate for doing this(by the way in kyokushin actually I learn how to hurt the other guy...)., revealed through mindfulness, modesty, spiritual purity, compassion, unselfishness, impartiality and a capacity to love and be loved. It means, that you will understand, that you don't get things quickly and too easily, it depends on how you train, not the number of days you have trained. The quest is never to capture a bunch of fighting techniques and technical terms, rather the quest must always be: to open your mind and your heart to the essence, to the art of living. In conclusion, it means, you will understand the point of karate by many years of training. you mentioned many qualities which are gained in various ways,not necessarily through karate, if karate teaches u this things(i dont see how can it teach u to love and be loved...) only after 10 years of practice, I have got shorter lessons in life which taught me the above. I also learned that some things u learn , u first obey your teacher and only later u understand why u did it(1+1=2, ABC...), so I'll be patient Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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