Incompatitbility of Budo and Christianity?

[shotokanwarrior]

I also have an opinion that a purly external art is deprived from its internal and spiritual aspects. Also I feel lets say if you practice zen it is not a religion in the sense of the word, which is a concept of the west in which followers have to follow dogmas and worship god.

[JerryLove]

You seem to know a lot about this topic , I have not yet reaserched furhter into these spiritual traditions but can you tell me the basics of taoism compared to zen?

 

Take the principles of the Budda (life is suffering, desire causes suffering, etc), add the basic applications of Daoism (live in the now, seek simplicity, etc), and you get zen (live to act without thought, be in this moment, avoid desire or worry about other moments, etc.).

[Zhong Gau]

damn, jerry! you just oversimplified about a thousand pages of Buddist evolution and Japanese syncretism.

 

its a bit more involved than that.

 

Buddism is the foundation of Chan. Chan is what was taken to Niponai-Edo which after about 150 years became syncretized with indigenous Kami faiths. Kami Faiths are an Animistic philosophy concerning ontology -or being and reality- which defines life as a stage in a spirit's development.

 

Chan/Zen (Sudden EnlightenmentSchool) was founded in the 5th century of the common era durring the Liu Sung period (420-479). it is part of the Three Treatise School of Buddism (of which Tien Tai -or the philosophy of 'perfect harmony'- is also a part) which was founded on the principle of emptiness.

 

the premise of Chan for fighting is this: that the supreme achievement of enlightenment is to react faster than it takes to think about how to react: to instinct. This principle is known as Wu Wei, or being without the clumsiness of being, aka 'non attachment' or 'mind being'. one could meditate and practice for as long or as short as it took for the individual to achieve this sudden enlightenment known as 'sitori'. the beating method of iron shirt (see 'iron shirt' thread) comes from this school in a later period and was the training tool to achieve non-attachment, the meditative predecessor to sitori.

 

this was considered to be the quintessential attitude/virtue a warrior could achieve as it would increase his speed, survivability and alieviate his conscious of his actions. but, according to a columnist i know, was a technique for keeping Japan's energetic warriors occupied between war time.

 

there's about eighty pages edited out of the edit i got it from. (cf. Wing Tsit Chan, A Sourcebook in Chinese Philosophy)

[June1]

This topic comes up constantly around here. Many have their own opinions about it and may disagree with me, but I just can't see how it is a religion. I've studied world religions and there are several characteristics that a religion must have in order to be a religion (God/gods, rituals, sacred text, myths, etc.).

 

Although martial arts may have some of these, let us not forget that many of these aspects are merely cultural, such as bowing, and we follow this out of respect and also because it is an integral part of the martial art.

 

I am Christian (Catholic, specifically) and though I practice karate, I, in no way, feel that it interferes with my religion. In fact, I pray during meditation at the beginning of class! My god is my god and that's that. To me, karate is an art, and I don't think there is anything wrong with practicing an art.

[Sunrunner]

I do not think that any martial arts system can constitute what could be called a religion in and of itself, but, as many posters have pointed out at this point, in some situations they have become closely linked. Separately, Martial Traditions and Religious Traditions I think have shown themselves to be almost equally powerful in inspiring people to live up to a fairly demanding standard as far as maintaining one's personal honor and courtesy to others. That for me is the most important distiction (i learned this from my own parents). My parents raised me in a Christian household, and though I no longer follow that path, it matters to them that I live life in a good way, as a good person, no matter where I find that inspiration.

[Zhong Gau]

two statements and a question:

 

if someone lives thier life according to a governing principle imposed upon them by societal institutions and enculturation then that principle can be culled a religeon.

 

if the determination of what is religeon is determined by a specific ethnocentric point of view no other point of view which fits some of the definition will be considered relevant or applicable by the culture which sets the definition.

 

this is the question and i expect it will generate a heated discussion: it is phrased as a statement for discussion purposes and is not intended to flame you.

 

Buddism predates Christianity by some 450years and some wandering jew encounters certain elements of it and incorporates it into his mystical philosophy. he goes back home and says "behold". in his experience he illustrates certain principles which are alluded to in his native tradition but are more expounded upon in another culture's verbose experience. he apologises (or translates) the new cultural information into terms his neighbors will understand, maybe even having a dynamic flair or palatial appeal due to the degredation of his native society and it's yearning for revenge and justice and self rule. for people moderately edjucated in the institutions of his society this seems like a temporary fix and a much needed opiate. to the people not edjucated in the tradition of responsibility the new information appears to cast significant doubt upon the validity of the societal institutions which maintain order of which there are two: one foreign one domestic. this new organisation represents a third government or governing body with its own rules and order or ascention not endorsed by the other two societal institutions. the third organisation essentially picks up the disaffected and fringe element populations and empowers them to freedom from responsibility by joining an ashram. to the disaffected and low this is very appealing and very threatening to the other two orgs.

 

the indigenous org decides the new group is a threat to everyone's very existence and proceeds to hunt them like diseased rodents. eventually the indigenous body politic decides to poison thier water. so they stage a conversion and have a lead member tell the new body politic how to be responsible in terms they would understand, ineffect translating the indigenous institution into third party jargon. the plan succeeds over time as most of the followers adhere to the apologised pleadings of the traditional indigenous way.

[Krazy Carol]

This is a hot topic... 7 pages of posting....

 

Personally, I keep my lack of faith to myself. It tends to worry those who love me and do believe in "God". My mother worries about my eternal soul enough as it is she doesn't need all the details.

[AnonymousOne]

Legalistic Christianity will tell you all sorts of things. They will say you cant do MA, they say you have to dress up for Church, women cant wear make up, jewellery, or mens pants. They say you cant drink or smoke, cant wear a condom or take the pill. Cant eat meat on Friday or eat pork at all and all manner of things, NONE of which can be found in the Canon of Scripture. No wonder people wont look at Christianity!

 

Many people superimpose their personal dislikes over the Bible and claim thats what God wants, but frankly they are Biblically incompetent baffoons.

 

What God says, God says and let no man pervert or add to it!

 

I have been in MA 41 years and been a Christian 25 years. I too have suffered at the hands of Churches, Pastors, and laymen who claim my Karate is wrong, but none of them have studied the art I train in and no nothing of its spiritual systems.

 

I ask them "Is it ok if I do boxing" and the say yes. Then I ask why. They say "Oh because that has no spiritual foundation"... Then I ask "What spiritual foundation does my school teach?"

 

They can never answer because the idiots just dont know. The answer is there is none!!

 

Most of the accusations come from a lack of study, assumptions and a clear lack of Biblical knowledge!

 

There is absolutely no evidence in the Bible whatsoever to prove that doing MA is forbidden and I challenge anyone to prove otherwise.

[senna_trem]

I've heard so many things like this it's starting to get boring. It's like a formula. Pick something from the internal arts section and ask if you can still be a christian doing it or if it conflicts with christianity.

 

Can you study zen and be christian?

 

Can you meditate before a fight and be christian?

 

Does ki/chi conflict with christianity?

 

Give it a rest christian fanatics, if you're so worried there might be conflict ask your priest and go with what they say!

[striking_cobra]

hmmm many of you have opinions that make one think about the question at hand. good work.