Black Belt at 8 ???

[Kirves]

Yes bad technique from the adult students. Too bad for any black belt even on a "bad day". If someone's taking pictures of you, those mistakes are unforgivable for a black belt. Korean styles know budo as moodo (mudo). So taking TKD is no exception.

 

But this is just my old-fashioned opinion.

[Kirves]

I personally do not like Shotokan for I perceive it to be a "watered down" martial art.

 

As is most budo. Budo is essentially Japanese (moodo is Korean). And in Japanese tradition, budo is fairly modern. It was preceded by bushido and it's ilk. Gendai budo (modern budo) that is preserved by karate, aikido, judo and alike, is just as you said: mostly watered down martial arts.

Shotokan's purpose is budo, not bujutsu, and as long as it is taken for such, there is no problem.

 

Excactly my point: no 8 year old can understand budo enough to live it and teach it to other students of the martial arts.

You criticized a person's bujutsu techniques and thus claimed that they weren't budo.

 

Shotokan is budo and not bujutsu. It has never been bujutsu.

Sorry for digressing from the main topic. I didn't mean this post to sound as hostile as it does, I in fact originally meant it as a "calm down" post...but I guess this happens...

 

Hey, this happens when we discuss topics. I think Shotokan is budo and nowhere near bujutsu. And I think this 8 year old knows less about stuff than the incompetent adults posing as uke in the clips. None of them should have black belts.

 

Just my humble opinion. Feel free to trash me.

[tommarker]

That's a bit melodramatic, don't you think? Unforgivable? Do they get the option to shave their heads and become monks, or must they commit seppuku?

 

I'm still curious at to what age I can expect to master budo.

[Kirves]

Yes, maybe I was a bit melodramatic. But I think someone who has both:

 

- years of martial arts training

 

- adult life experience

 

is someone who can try to live, breath and teach budo.

 

You asked about mastering budo, I don't know about mastery, so can't comment on that.

 

A black belt should know proper technique, shouldn't he? At least how to do the punch that was taught in the first lesson, right? (The black belts in that dojo don't).

[Shorin Ryuu]

Hehe, Kirves, that last post of mine wasn't directed at you...Just to clarify though...

Quote:

 

You criticized a person's bujutsu techniques and thus claimed that they weren't budo.

 

Shotokan is budo and not bujutsu. It has never been bujutsu.

 

I was referring to the fact that he was criticizing the "bujutsu-ness of the technique" but was doing this to criticize its "budo-ness". Thats kinda worded strangely, but I didn't know how else to put it. (In other words, we are in agreement )

Edited May 29, 2003 by Shorin Ryuu

[tommarker]

Kirves,

 

Is this their fault? Should they be able to subjectively say "You know, my technique really isn't that good in comparison with other Shotokan practitioners... I should give up my black belt!" As we can easily tell from this board, everyone knows the way in which they perform the technique is the best.

 

So let's presume that in this particular case that the students are merely a product of bad teaching; instructors with a low level of talent or expectation. Heck, let's even call them a mcdojo. Perhaps even, this 8 year old is not worthy of a black belt.

 

It seems a bit extreme to say no child can expect to be a black belt, especially basing it on this one kid?

 

Adult life experience is great, but when can you say you have that? I'm 26, and I think I have very little. More than others sure, and even more than other people my age probably.

 

A young black belt can be a role model when it is appropriate. I'm sure that to younger students, he is a shining example of what can be accomplished with hard work. A role model to adults? Well, that is far-fetched.

 

I guess what I'm saying is that if an 8 year old can perform the techniques reasonably well, meets the requirements of their particular art, and can manage to hold a "prestigious" rank without it going to his head, then why CAN'T they be a black belt? Shodan is a big difference from even nidan, and isn't even in the same universe as yondan or higher.

 

So, what's the big deal? Does it take away from your ability as a yudanja?

[Shorin Ryuu]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and think that what people are trying to say that they are skeptical, and rightly so. I for one am very skeptical. Unless this kid is some "golden child" I don't think they deserve a black belt. This doesn't mean that I expect more from a 8-year-old black belt, its that I expect the same as I would a 20-year-old shodan, or a 40-year-old shodan...you get the picture.

 

Obviously the indignance of people who see an 8-year-old black belt

 

is the same as the indignance when we see a McDojo. The only thing different here is age, because it is so unlikely that a person at that age would have the maturity to be a black belt. The reason why this is a factor is because regardless of what side an art falls under in the bujutsu/budo division, there is an additional mental component to martial arts, otherwise it would simply be just fighting. A black belt (and we have all heard and understand the saying that a shodan is just the beginning) implies that there is that maturity and mental capability there. At the age of 8, children accept what is taught to them without true critical thinking (although in my experience, this is not true at the age of 5 when everything is "Why?" ). In other words, the individual's mind has not fully matured and gathered enough experience in the world.

 

Again, regardless of this individual case, people are just indignant when they see someone not deserving of a black belt get a black belt. What determines what someone needs to get a black belt? Unfortunately, in today's state of the martial arts, it is almost personal opinion. Most of us just have a very high standard that the kid must meet. They feel that performing the techniques "reasonably well" is simply not good enough. If a shodan is someone who has mastered the basics, then this interpretation leaves much room to be skeptical in this case. If there is dissension over the standard, and I'm sure there always will be, then this debate will always continue.

[tommarker]

has it ever really been much more than personal opinion? black belts have not been around for what 100 years, if that.

[Shorin Ryuu]

I suppose not...I have a really huge post on the history of the belt system in the Martial Arts and Politics system that breaks down its history from conception to present, if anyone is interested...

 

Its under the Belts are just a scam!!!! Post.

[tommarker]

i'll check it out... this has been a fun discussion.. thanks!