Black Belt at 8 ???

[hobbitbob]

If you don't believe it, here's what BBC said about it:

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/uk/newsid_3034000/3034513.stm

Look at the wrist posistion of the hikite on the adult in the first picture, I think this says all there needs to be said about the quality of this dojo.

 

[tommarker]

i hope no one ever takes a bad picture of you... or in this case, takes a still out of a video clip and then says "boy look at this... his school must suck."

[tommarker]

there is a black belt at my school who recently turned SEVEN. she is good. don't doubt people to their age, get used to it. kids and teens can be black belts too!

 

Last time I checked, Shotokan was a budo art. A child won't understand budo, definitely can't live a budoka life.

 

And TKD cannot be a budo art? At one age does one really understand budo? Have you mastered it? How old are you?

 

Shodan is nothing more than a pretty landmark on the path. None of us will be true masters until we're wetting our Depends anyway, so who gives a toss if this kid is lucky enough to get started on the path early?

[hobbitbob]

i hope no one ever takes a bad picture of you... or in this case, takes a still out of a video clip and then says "boy look at this... his school must suck."

I saw nothing but mediocre to bad technique from the adults on the videoclip.I would expect better from a Shotokan Yudansha.I stand by my comment. The bent wrist is an example of failure to pay attention to detail and, as far as I'm concerned, demonstrates the poor standards of that school. If it is the same school I am thinking of, their website has a videoclip of a girl's 3d dan test. Her performance of Gojushiho Sho is very poor, indeed. her stances are so low that she must come up to do her mae geri,and she drops the kicks, rather than retracting them. She displays no kime, and the list goes on and on. I will try to find the site and post a link.

 

I would suggest that you consider that standards are a bit higher in Japanese styles than they are in systems like Tang Soo Do.

Edited May 28, 2003 by hobbitbob

[hobbitbob]

Poor technique examples:

 

http://www.bolton-shotokan.org/Video/gojushihosho_56.rm

 

http://www.bolton-shotokan.org/Video/Kihon1s_56.rm

 

http://www.bolton-shotokan.org/Video/Kumite1_56.rm

[hobbitbob]

And TKD cannot be a budo art?

Of course TKD is not a Budo art. I suggest you read Robert Dorenwend 's 3 part series on the "history" of TKD in the last three issues of Dragon Times/ Classical Fighting Arts. Tang Soo Do, TKD, etc..., are pale, poorly executed copies of Shotokan Karate.

[tommarker]

I would suggest that you consider that standards are a bit higher in Japanese styles than they are in systems like Tang Soo Do.

 

 

guess this will be going nowhere fast. thank you for your enlightenment.

[Shorin Ryuu]

Hey, easy there...If you wanna talk about imitations...listen what Funakoshi, the father of Japanese karate, had to say himself about Japanese Karate...

 

"Accordingly, even fewer realize that karate in Tokyo today is almost completely different in form from what was earlier practiced in Okinawa.

 

A few years ago I took my students to the Butoku-den in Kyoto to participate in a dedicatory martial arts demonstration...when it came time for their demonstrations, I was even more surprised for their so-called karate was unlike karate. Deeply embarrassed, I felt I should apologize to the other observers. It was the karate that I, who have devoted many years in the art, could not recognize as such."

 

~Gichin Funakoshi 1943

 

Many people choose Japanese karate like Shotokan to practise their budo. I personally do not like Shotokan for I perceive it to be a "watered down" martial art. Many of its techniques are less effective than they could be. However, like you said, Shotokan's purpose is budo, not bujutsu, and as long as it is taken for such, there is no problem. Budo doesn't worry as much about the effectiveness of the techniques in combat as it does perfecting the individual. Therefore, why bash the techniques of TKD or TSD when others can just as easily bash yours using a -jutsu analysis? That is what you have been doing. You criticized a person's bujutsu techniques and thus claimed that they weren't budo. Apples and oranges, you can't do that...You don't bash people for attaining peace of mind through flower arranging or tea ceremony, do you? For that matter, learning just iaido, which has obvious combative ancestery, isn't the most practical thing to learn nowadays in terms of pure self-defense, but nobody bashes that, do they? If TKD or TSD works for them in that respect, then why not let it go?

 

I don't mean to uneccessarily bash Shotokan in this post, that wasn't my intent. The purpose of this was to realize that if your focus is budo then the technical things aren't as important. If you wanted to criticize bujutsu then be ready to face criticism yourself.

 

EDIT: Sorry for digressing from the main topic. I didn't mean this post to sound as hostile as it does, I in fact originally meant it as a "calm down" post...but I guess this happens...

[hobbitbob]

Consider the sources of Korean arts:

 

Hwang Kee(Tang Soo Do): Claims to have trained in some nebulous "Chinese martial arts" and to have trained in "indigenous Korean Arts." In other sources, claims to have learned from books. In still other sources, claims to have learned from Funakoshi (no documented evidence to support this) and Mabuni (again, no documantation supports this assertion). Also clamied to have been a "spy" or "dissident/Korean Freedom Fighter" during WWII. In fact, documents exist asserting Kee was deported to Manchuria during WWII as part of a labour levy of Koreans.

 

Choi Hong HI (ITF TKD): Claimed to have earned Dan ranking in Shotokan (once again, no documentation exists placing Choi at any of Funakoshi's Dojo in the 1930s or 1940s. ) Appointed 4th Dan in Ching Do Kwan as a political move,at the urging of the Korean Army.

 

In addition, one must consider the state of technique in the Korean styles. Yes, there exist TKD/TSD schools where students learn effective self defence. However, none of these schools diplay a level of technique that can be considered anything but marginal, even when the observer is being generous! In addition, Korean stylits routinely display ignorance of such basic concepts as hip rotation, Hikite/Shomente relationships, body mechanics in motion, etc...

 

In addition, Korean stylists generally display a stunning lack of knowledge when confronted with questions regarding intereperetation of Kata. Most Korean stylists, unless exposed to Japanese or Okinawan arts, will happily stick with block/punch/kick intereperetations of technique.

 

Coupled with the above, are overwhelming emphasis on, and early accession to, high Dan grades. 40 y.o. 7th, 8th, and 9th Dans are common, frequently displaying poor to nonexistant command of basic technique.

 

I'm sorry if I am stepping on anyone's toes, but these are verifiable examples. What might the solution be?

 

First: Honesty from the Style heads.

 

Second: Relaxation of the propoganda apparatus of the Korean Government (ex: "TKD is _ Thousand Years Old...").

 

Third: Cessation of promotion to high Dan grades at young ages by Korean Stylists.

 

Fourth: Acknowledgement by Korean stylists that they are practicing a variation of Shotokan Karate, and an effort by those individuals to upgrade their skill levels.

 

 

As far as Shotokan itself, Shotokan karate Do is (by Funakoshi's own admission) Karate with the lethal techniqes and applications removed. So what does this say about a watered down version of a watered down version of Karate?

[tommarker]

Why should I bother arguing with you? You clearly know it all. At any rate, this has deviated from the topic. If you want to keep telling everyone how much you know about Tang Soo Do, please feel free to start another topic. I'm sure you won't mind putting it "karate" since it's nothing more than watered down shotokan.