in general, is karate good for self-defence?

[WhiteBelt]

Can karate be good for self defense? Of course, but it's up to you to make it work. In the same way that a gun can be great for self defense, unless you left it in the car or never learned how to use it...

[24 Fighting Chickens]

The way karate is meant to be practised, which is basically to deal desicively and brutally with any attacker at the outset of their violent escalation, makes size a moot point.

 

I must disagree with that - it's a common myth in the martial arts community that size is unimportant, and yet all evidence points to the contrary.

 

Size is definitely a factor in any fight, no matter how it escalates.

 

Consider this: a 50 pound 6 year old punches a 200 pound 35 year old in the ribs. Effect=nothing. 35 year old punches 50 pound 6 year old in the ribs. Effect=possible death. (let's leave the obvious moral issue with that scenario out of the discussion for now)

 

Obviously size plays a role. What is that role?

 

Being larger means you generally have several advantages:

 

1. Longer reach = you can hit someone when they cannot hit you. You get the first shot unless surprised.

 

2. Longer limbs = longer distance for techniques to travel = acceleration will create much, much higher velocity at impact. All great fast ball pitchers have long arms.

 

3. Potential for larger muscles = potential for greater strength = potential for much more hard hitting strikes

 

4. Larger size = larger bones = more force required to sustain a brute force bone break = greater protection from attack

 

5. Larger size = larger weight = more required of attack to sustain a shocking blow or injury.

 

There are a couple of scales there that should be considered.

 

Your size vs. the oppoent's size is one of them. The closer in size you become, the less size is an issue. The more size differential there is, the greater the problem.

 

Does karate eliminate size differences? I used to believe that when I was a hard-training teenage karate monkey from hell, and I thought that I could kick just about anyone's butt. Now that I'm middle aged, I know better. I've beaten some big guys, but it took a *lot* of effort, and a couple of big guys have splattered me all over the floor just because I couldn't hurt them and they weren't incompetent fighters.

 

Between two people, anything can happen, and a real fighting expert weighs all of the possible options and avoids underestimating the opponent and the potential to lose for various reasons.

[Sho-ju]

If a skilled karateka is defending himself against a bigger unskilled person I would bet on the karateka. Growing up in and around a boxing club I have seen many smaller men out box/k.o. bigger people.

 

I think it comes down to the individual.

[Rich]

Sho-ju is correct. I was told (by a reliable source) of an 8 stone doorman who regularly took out much larger guys- he had to because they picked on him!

 

With regards to my post I talked of preemptive striking anyway- and size really is a moot point here.

 

I read your article and found it to be a mix of correct and not so correct information- I assume that may be because of your Shotokan background possibly?- but the original karate was not a distance duelling art at all but a response to the conditions that occurred on the street corners of a lot of places in the past of Okinawa and in the present of our societies.

 

Regards

 

Rich

[WhiteBelt]

I think what 24FC means is that, on average, somebody larger will dominate somebody smaller, all things being equal but the size. There are exceptions to every rule, but everybody can't be that exception no matter how much they all want it.

 

Karate can be effective for self-defense. It depends on who you are, how hard you train, who trained you, who you're up against, and a little bit of luck. You have control over 3 of the 5*.

 

*Yeah that is simplified but it gets the point across. You could add where you are fighting, what you had to eat, what you and your opponent are each wearing, who is facing the sun, etc. But then that would take forever...

[24 Fighting Chickens]

If a skilled karateka is defending himself against a bigger unskilled person I would bet on the karateka.

 

I've been involved in karate for more than 2 decades, and I'm saying that generally, in most cases, the smaller guy is screwed no matter what he does - depending on how much smaller he is.

 

Many small men would like to delude themselves that they can take a class three days a week and go from 150 pound wuss to Arnold the Terminator in a few years.

 

I have *never* seen that happen in two decades of teaching Shotokan.

I think it comes down to the individual.

 

Now _that_ is true.

 

Genetically, we are all limited in what we can accomplish. You cannot overcome your maximum potential. What martial arts - and any other sports training - does is help you to understand what your real limits are as opposed to your imagined limits.

 

That doesn't mean you don't have limits, because you do. This is not the Matrix. It is the real world, and that world has rules, and they cannot be broken.

 

One of those rules is that a man 1 inch tall cannot beat up a man 100 feet tall. That's just a fact of life. Everyone would agree with that, right?

 

It is an extreme example to make a point. Size obviously does matter. No matter what I teach a 1 inch high man to do, a 100 foot high man is going to step on him and crush him like a roach.

 

As the sizes get closer and closer together, the difference is less and less. If we are about the same size, then other factors besides size will be more important.

 

But if our sizes are different by 20 pounds or more, especially 50 pounds or more, then size is just another advantage.

 

You can bring up exceptions to this situation all the time, but they are exceptions, and the rule holds: size is a factor; size matters; size is an advantage; size adds to your chances.

 

Now, if you want to drop the topic of size, we can talk about one of my more controversial beliefs... that training really is not one of the important factors. A mean, in-shape, untrained, football playing bully will whip the tar out of a highly trained chess club captain every time.

[AndrewGreen]

Size is a big factor, but not one that can't be overcome.

 

Experience, the ability to move and strategy can counter the size advantage. But the bigger the size difference the harder this is.

 

If I am smaller but can dictate the fight I can gain the advantage.

 

From a pure striking point of view that means footwork. Watch how Roy Jones Jr. fought Hohn Ruiz, he kept the fight where he wanted it, in the center where he could move. It was footwork that won that fight. After the fight Ruiz even stated that he couldn't fight his kind of fight which is why he lost.

 

Royce Gracie did the same thing in the UFC. He knew how to fight from the ground, his opponents didn't. He also knew how to take them there, and he won because of it. Had he tried to slug it out with his much larger opponents he would have lost quickly. But he dictated the fight, where it was and how it was fought.

 

Another good example is Couture vs Belfort. Belfort was easily the superior boxer, but Couture knocked him out with punches. He did this by clinching and positioning him self so that he could strike effectively and Belfort couldn't.

 

But in order to beat a larger opponent you need experience in all ranges with few rules because you will have to force them to fight in a way that they are less effective and you are more effective.

 

A bigger stronger guy will likely knock you out in a fist fight. But if you can take his back and choke him out he won't be able to do so.

[24 Fighting Chickens]

A bigger stronger guy will likely knock you out in a fist fight. But if you can take his back and choke him out he won't be able to do so.

 

I had a man say this to me once. He weighed about 160. He got behind me, and "choked me." The result is that for a while, he was hanging with his feet off the floor from my neck. When I got tired of it, I reached back, grabbed, him, and threw him feet over the top over my right shoulder and slammed him into the floor.

 

Actually I would say a fist fight is the best option for a smaller guy. In grappling, size is almost everything.

 

Use of footwork and other fighting skills is helpful, but not really as helpful as most kids would like to think.

[AndrewGreen]

I had a man say this to me once. He weighed about 160. He got behind me, and "choked me." The result is that for a while, he was hanging with his feet off the floor from my neck. When I got tired of it, I reached back, grabbed, him, and threw him feet over the top over my right shoulder and slammed him into the floor.

 

Mind if I ask what sort of grappling background he had? If he knew what he was doing he shouldn't have applied a choke in that way. A rear naked choke will have you out in a few seconds if its applied well, and no trained grappler would ever do it dangling from your neck.

Actually I would say a fist fight is the best option for a smaller guy. In grappling, size is almost everything.

 

Then I would say you are wrong. The most important thing for a small guy would probably be a good guard game.

 

With very little training a smaller person can be taught to hold a mount on a larger untrained person, although it does take more to learn to get there. Visit a submission/BJJ school and I can assure you that people much smaller then you will be able to dominate you positionally and slap submissions on you everytime you try to muscle out.

 

In the same way a smaller, but well trained boxer will be able to dance circles around and land punches on a much larger but untrained person most of the time.

 

A smaller fighter needs to work off angles and usually try to clinch or takedown and go from there. But they need to put themself into a superior positions from where they can strike or go for locks/chokes and the other guy can't.

Use of footwork and other fighting skills is helpful, but not really as helpful as most kids would like to think.

 

Nothing is perfect, but it can give you an edge.But you need to practice sparring, with contact in all ranges. (Standing, clinching, ground) with as few restrictions as possible in order to develop that, and karate typically doesn't do that.

 

Size and aggressiveness are always a advantage, but so are speed, technique and timing. They can balance each other out, but the bigger the difference the harder it is and there comes a point where the it is almost impossible.