There is no Best Martial Art

[Scandinavian]

That is a very bad reason to do something. After 900 years there should be improvement, if what you do is 900 years old it is outdated. Or do you also believe Aristotle was right and modern science is wrong about most things?

 

Silly analogy, usually in the past science people were not absolutely wrong, but their theory would have flaws when pushed to extreme. Ie. before Newton people knew that apple would drop from the three, but did not _exactly_ know how fast. Kicking somebody in their chest is not exact science, if you are not interested in the small details. Maybe the forces that break the 4 boards with your bare hands were taught to come from some mystical Ki, but today we now better. Still, the 4 boards will be broken, whether you take the force from Ki or from E=mc2.

 

Every normal human being is born with 2 hands and 2 legs, this have been true for hunreds of thousands of years. Some of them people are strong, some of them are weak muscle wise. Every one of them WITHOUT TRAINING does the same thing when they want to hurt you, as people did in 100 000 BC. They hit, kick, bite, scream and whatnot. If you train any MA for few years in school, that is not McDojo, you will very very likely be in total control of that attacking person in matter of seconds. It is not exact science, but simply reacting properly, ie. jump aside and do sidekick. When trained you do it so fast that the untrained attacker has simpy zero possibility to counter your move (minimun non-trained reaction time, is 0.4-0.5 seconds, for drunken person this goes to several seconds). As you progress, the more you can even be able to slain people that have actually done something for their attacking skills. This situation is however rare, since these kinds of guys spend their lives behind bars mostly, or go 6 feet under when somebody pulls the trigger on them.

 

MA will not be obsolete, until something revolutionary will happen to human instincts and its body, in other words, when the concept of human animal is no longer true. You could think the born of MA (in 3000BC or so, in the Asia) as the einsteins theories, you can refine it, but you will not revolutionize them. Timespans in martial arts do not compare with timespans of mathemathical science.

[JerryLove]

I'm unconvinced that MMA training (specificaly, the training methodology of relying on limited-rules free-sparring) is neccessairily preferred for non-competition.

 

The reason it's ideal for competition is obvious; becuase you are practicing exactly what you will be doing. The reason it's probibly not ideal for combative training is the same... you are not practicing what you will be doing.

 

Depending on the nature of teh combat and opponent, how different the two are will vary. Get into a fist-fight in bar, and the fight may look very similar to what you expect from MMA randori... Get into a knife fight in a dark alley, and it probibly won't.

 

There's a sparring methods thread in teh Combative arts section on this.

[Treebranch]

Andrew Green the man with all the answers said:

That is a very bad reason to do something. After 900 years there should be improvement, if what you do is 900 years old it is outdated. Or do you also believe Aristotle was right and modern science is wrong about most things?

 

It's not my reason for studying this, but it is silly to assume that these people didn't know what was effective in Combat. Fuedal Japan was a very violent place and these techniques and training methods worked. The techniques that didn't work died in the Battle Field with the practitioner and were not passed down. These techniques still work and will continue working as long as we don't grow an extra leg or arm. The human structure has not changed, or do you think it has?

 

Scandinavian makes a great point and all you Modern thinking people in your instant gratification, instant success type mentality, don't have the patience and dedication to learn a complete art form. I think ring fighters are great fighters, I don't know if you are. I also know that if you train with rules, those rules will filter in to your fighting. You are not training for a real situation, and that's cool if competition is your aim, it's not mine.

 

So anyway Mr. Green if you think the wheel is being reinvented than you are very mistaken and you have very little respect for Traditional MA's. Modern MA and Traditional MA's are not immune to the McDojo symdrome or teachers who have bad training methods.

 

Have you ever heard the phrase, " There's nothing new under the sun."?

 

After 900 years of trail and error I would say they know a thing or two about what's effective in a "Real" fight, it's more effective than you'll ever know. To say it's outdated because it's old is so short sighted. I hope you don't teach your philosphy to your students. Let's see if your so called MMA's will be around 50 years from now. Sorry but if MMA's competition go out of fashion so will it's training methods and Grandpa Budo Taijutsu will still be around, as constant as the tide itself.

Edited May 20, 2003 by Treebranch

[ZR440]

A quick reminder before this thread gets out of hand: Keep it respectful even if you don't agree.

 

Thanx

[metamorph]

I'm unconvinced that MMA training (specificaly, the training methodology of relying on limited-rules free-sparring) is neccessairily preferred for non-competition.

 

The reason it's ideal for competition is obvious; becuase you are practicing exactly what you will be doing. The reason it's probibly not ideal for combative training is the same... you are not practicing what you will be doing.

 

Depending on the nature of teh combat and opponent, how different the two are will vary. Get into a fist-fight in bar, and the fight may look very similar to what you expect from MMA randori... Get into a knife fight in a dark alley, and it probibly won't.

 

There's a sparring methods thread in teh Combative arts section on this.

 

1st of all I would like to say if you get into a knife fight in a dark ally chances are you will get hurt or killed even with training. Most MMA fighters train there arts to get better at them themselves not spacificly for MMA its more spacificly for combat because street or MMA you are still in combat either way. You can not train for all variables in a fight but MMA is the closest compatition to a real situation fist fight. In most fist fights I do not see what I expect to see in MMA because few ppl take it to the ground. Oh and 1 last thing MMA style training means training many arts to make your technique rounded, it will work better for you in a fight in a real situation because you know how to handle being on the ground and on your feet.

[Treebranch]

metamorph said:

1st of all I would like to say if you get into a knife fight in a dark ally chances are you will get hurt or killed even with training. Most MMA fighters train there arts to get better at them themselves not spacificly for MMA its more spacificly for combat because street or MMA you are still in combat either way. You can not train for all variables in a fight but MMA is the closest compatition to a real situation fist fight. In most fist fights I do not see what I expect to see in MMA because few ppl take it to the ground. Oh and 1 last thing MMA style training means training many arts to make your technique rounded, it will work better for you in a fight in a real situation because you know how to handle being on the ground and on your feet.

 

That's great to be well rounded and if you feel studying many arts will do this for you, fine. I think it will too, but it's not the only way. There are Martial Arts that are very well rounded already, because they were designed for live Combat. The Mixed Martial Arts most commonly used in UFC of Pride were not specifically Combart Styles of Martial Arts. Are they effective, Yes. The only point I was trying to make is that there are MA's that are very well rounded and complete Arts, on their own. Budo Taijutsu has 9 schools within it that covers ground fighting, grappling, locks and levers, many weapons, evasion techniques etc... To me it's a very well rounded and intelligent fighting art. The principles are the same with all nine schools, the only difference is distance and timing, because your distance and timing is different when you are using a sword or bo staff, etc. It is one of the most wholistic Martial Arts Styles out there. Just because Taijutsu practitioners don't compete doesn't mean it's not effective. Your response is different in the ring than in a real situation, I know I used to kickbox and I never thought the opponent was trying to kill me, I was never scared. Or that my opponents friends might jump in, the fact is you can't replicate a real fight, all you can do is train for it. If your training is good, you should survive, the point is not to win, it's to survive.

[JerryLove]

1st of all I would like to say if you get into a knife fight in a dark ally chances are you will get hurt or killed even with training.

 

My chances of dying alone are considerably less than 50/50 (you do realize I was suggesting knife-on-kinfe), but you've avoided the point .

Most MMA fighters train there arts to get better at them themselves not spacificly for MMA its more spacificly for combat because street or MMA you are still in combat either way.

 

Fencing or MMA you are under combat either way... do you suggest fencers would do well at the UFC? Or that BJJ is good training for a fencing match?

 

Sprinting or Marathon, it's running either way... balloon or plane, it's flying either way.... depth or speed, it's swimming either way... your idea is obvious, but also quite false.

You can not train for all variables in a fight but MMA is the closest compatition to a real situation fist fight.

 

I have no idea which "MMA" definition you are presently using, but I find any one of them false to that statement. If you can be more specific in your claim, I can be more specific in my critique.

Oh and 1 last thing MMA style training means training many arts to make your technique rounded, it will work better for you in a fight in a real situation because you know how to handle being on the ground and on your feet.

 

Argument based on the false premise that an individual art is not well rounded. (again, depending on which definition of MMA you are using).

[Treebranch]

Well said JerryLove.

[King of Fighters]

I dont think training in knife defence matters. Do you honestly think that practicing knife defence for 20 minutes every class or 2 a couple of times a week is really going to help against an oponant who has the intension of killing you? Even with lots of experience the best idea is still just to run away or hope like hell that you can hit him before he stabs you, doing some knife defence technique wouldnt help a bit.

[Treebranch]

King of Fighters I guess you never practiced any good knife defenses. We do randori for knife attacks and sometimes you get cut and sometimes you don't. I think if you understood the principles behind knife defenses you wouldn't have made that comment. It's better to know a little of something than alot of nothing. I agree with you if you can run away, run. If you can't you better know what to do.