Mixed Martial Arts, Brazilian Ju Jitsu, and Reality

[Kimura]

Hi. New to Karateforums.com. Just wanted to say that I enjoy the intelligent debates here in the "Comparing Styles" section. Thought I might spark another one.

 

One argument that rages today, just as it was in '93 after the first UFC, and is bitterly debated on all sides: "Is Vale Tudo (aka Mixed Martial Arts, No Holds Barred, Ultimate Fighting, etc.) the most effective form of combat arts?"

 

The new breed of fighter born out of the 90's, weaned on the exploits of Royce Gracie and the UFC, argues that Brazilian Ju Jitsu is the greatest form of martial arts in the world. The fact that BJJ's obssesseive focus with leverage and technique in application of its immobilzation and submission maneuvers has given it (at least in the eyes of its proponents) an air of martial purity is not questioned. However, I find it interesting that much of the basis for these claims of dominance fall on the rather specious reasoning that their unrivalled success in so called "No Holds Barred" fighting spectacles translates to unrivalled success in ALL combat situations.

 

BJJ is an incredibly effective art, as Carlos, and later Helio, Gracie intended it to be. It studies combat from a real world, full contact situation, and decides to focus on the ground aspect. Now, first off, Gracie Ju Jitsu is very correct in saying "you own the ground, you own the fight". The FBI keeps statistics on all forms of fighting and assault, and concludes that 86% of all fist fights will end up on the ground. So, obviously, having an expertise in fighting on the ground, and especially from your back, provides a definitive edge over unschooled opposition. I study, and have a deep passion for, Brazilian Ju Jitsu for precisely this reason.

 

However, I question the validity in saying that a style that finds great success in amateur and professional exhibition combat will also naturally have great success in battles of life and death. Not only is that akin to saying, "Because I excel at the jumping aspect of Basketball, I will naturally excel in Olympic high jump", or "Because I am a master of computer wargames, I am also a master of military tactics", it is facetious to believe a martial art that teaches NO lethal striking, NO pressure point usage, NO small joint manipulation, and NO esoteric or hidden biological knowledge is the undisputed king of combat arts. It is naive and childish to make such claims.

 

I would like to know what the rest of the community thinks on this issue, and if necessary, I will make another post, listing IMHO what advantages and this "new age" combat and more traditional forms of martial arts have.

 

Let the discussion begin!

[TJS]

I think Eye gouging,small joint manipulations,biting etc..can all be effective when used correctly.

 

Here is the problem though, People simplly use them as an excuse when they dont know grappling..like here are a few common ones

 

- "if someone arm barred me I would bite their leg"

 

nice, but chances are they will still break your arm..I would trade a bite for a broken arm any day.

 

-"If I was in their gaurd I would just punch them in the groin"

 

Maybe but if you are in position to do so, then You proabably are about to get an arm/leg broken/traingle choked etc....or they will a sweep or kick you away.

 

"I would just eye gouge them"

 

where? when? if they have the mount on you, whitch is very likely then

 

A) they are going to be in a much better position to do so

 

B)You extending your arm is the last thing you want to do..it will get snapped very quickly

 

If you are in the gaurd then the same applies..for the most part.

 

That being said, thechniques like you said can absoultly be useful..but they should be applied on top of other skills imo.

 

basically I think everyone just gets sick of people using them as a universal way to beat a grappler.

[TJS]

I came across a funny post the other day..I think it goes along with what I just said..really it's supposed to be funny not get anyone upset..so take it as a joke..

Once I got in a street fight with a karate guy, (I'm BJJ) and I took him down and went for an armbar but he BIT ME!!! I immediately released the lock and pulled guard but I landed on a bunch of broken glass which reaked havoc on my back and a**. While I was writhing in pain from the broken glass I lost my guard but I put him in a half-guard then took his back and went for a choke. But then he surprised the sh** out of me by poking me in the eyes! I had to immediately let go of my choke and run in small circles screaming "I AM BLIND! DEAR LORD I AM BLIND!" then he hit me in my Chi meridian and knocked me down. Then he used his Life Energy to summon a bunch of Karate Ninjas who gang-stomped me to death.

[Stold]

Haha, if biting were allowed you would see much less of people wiggling around in eachother's guard. I, for one, would wait for whoever had me in their guard to pull me close to their chest to stop me from striking, then take a bite out of their pec.

[SaiFightsMS]

This is intelligent discussion?

[TJS]

Haha, if biting were allowed you would see much less of people wiggling around in eachother's guard. I, for one, would wait for whoever had me in their guard to pull me close to their chest to stop me from striking, then take a bite out of their pec.

 

ok what would be a better option than the gaurd? Assuming you end up on bottom what would you do?let them take the mount and pound your head in? The gaurd is the best of the worst positions..if at all possible you should never utalize it...if you end up on bottom it's proabably because thre person you fighting is much bigger or stronger or they got you by suprise in a real fight the better grappler is going to try and get on top.

[niel0092]

LOL that was funny TJS. I can just see him running around in circles "I am blind! Dear lord I am blind!"

[Kimura]

Well, this is not EXACTLY the kind of discussion I was expecting, but I will respond to a few statements.

 

First, TJS is absolutely right about people who underestimate the value of the guard. The biggest innovation to come to mainstream combat arts in the last 20 years is most certainly the guard. It is simply a matter of physics. By elevating my lower back, and wrapping my legs around the waist, or lower abdomen, of my attacker, I negate his center of gravity and the impetus for his downward leverage. I can effectively use my legs, the strongest parts of the human body, to control my attackers positioning and balance. This is far preferable to allowing an attacker a full mounted position upon your chest, a knee upon your stomach, or even a perpendicular half mount (aka side mount). Quite frankly, if you are not in some sort of top position, the absolute best situation is the guard.

 

However, I also disagree with TJS in the fact that when he completely refutes tactics such as "dirty" fighting (eye gouges, fish hooking, etc), small joints, biting, pressure points, and such. Perhaps one of the most dangerous martial arts ever encountered is also one of the forefathers: Yoshin-Ryu Ju Jitsu. YRJJ is the original form of Japanese Ju Jitsu, and it is the basis for all other Japanese martial arts, from Karate to Kendo to Judo. Yoshin-Ryu, along with many other forms of Japanese Ju Jitsu, teaches: Submission fighting, grappling, clinching, throws and takedowns, striking (knees, elbows, kicks and punches), weapons use, pressure point manipulation, anatomical understanding, and, more controversially, "dim mak", or death touches. All of this is learned, and it takes many, many years for someone to achieve the purple belt (equiv. to black in other arts), often 12-15 years.

 

My father is a fourth degree Purple in Yoshin-Ryu, and I have dabbled myself in many arts and trained with him. I am now studying Muay Thai and Brazilian Ju Jitsu under a Romero Cavalcanti certified Brown Belt...and it doesn't do jack against my 64 year old father. I am 22. And it is interesting to note how he fights, when we fool around and such. Attempting armbars on someone who knows Pressure points and can toy with your sciatic nerve (and does!) gives you, as a grappler, a new appreciation for the depth of ground combat. and I have learned countless alternate ways to apply ankle locks, heel hooks, and triangles that leave me in awe of their effectiveness. All from the supposedly "obsolete" style of JJJ.

 

As to whether Vale Tudo is the most effective form of martial arts (the original question for this thread), I think the street oriented drive of Vale Tudo, which is INCREDBILY effective in real life situations, is not necessarily the MOST effective. Vale Tudo has a ridiculous advantage over single style arts when put in NHB situations, and most Karateka, Judoka, Tae Kwon Do, Silat, Kickboxers, and especially Boxers, are totally outclassed when fighting a seasoned Vale Tudo fighter. However, other arts, such as combat versions of aikido, and many styles of Japanese Ju Jitsu, bestow far more options, most of them lethal, to aid in one's self defense. So it really is a toss up.

[TJS]

i think we agree for the most part..i didint say such techniques were obsolete ..I simply mean they should not be a universal solution to everything on the ground..you should not have to rely on the imo.

[JohnnyS]

I agree that BJJ is not the end-all and be-all of self-defense. I love BJJ but will agree that there a lot of things out there that can be added to BJJ to make it a more effective street style. Things like set-ups for a fight, learning the pyschology of a fight etc from people like Geoff Thompson. Some of the things you mentioned are also applicable such as small-joint manipulation (my old karate instructor stopped a fight before it even began by breaking the thumb of his skinhead opponent who had grabbed my instructors jacket) etc.

 

BJJ by itself is an effective martial art for self-defense. Adding to it techniques and tactics such as those outlined above will no doubt make it more effective.

 

As far as your comment that BJJ is not the “undisputed king of combat arts”, this is what I will disagree with. If BJJ isn’t, then what is ? What other art has had so much success in MMA competition as BJJ ? It is well known that no matter what your base-art, you need to have some knowledge of BJJ if you wish to compete successfully in MMA.

 

If all of these other dangerous arts are so good, then why aren’t they represented and using their skills in the ring or in the octagon ?