John G Posted May 1, 2003 Posted May 1, 2003 For many years ITF Taekwon-do denied the fact that the basis of TKD was Karate, albeit modified (a Korean thing I guess). It was interesting to read (in another forum) that General Choi’s (Founder ITF TKD) first book on the subject of TKD (1965) included the following patterns (katas?) along with some of his newly developed Tuls/patterns/katas. I was wondering if anyone could please tell me anything about them or where I can find more out more information about them. Patterns/ katas? are: Hei-an I, II, III, IV and V Bat-sai En-bi Ro-hai Kouh-shang-kouh Tet-ki I, II and III Jit-te Han-Getsu Ji-on Thankyou in advance. Respectfully, … John G Jarrett III Dan, ITF Taekwon-Do
Guest Posted May 1, 2003 Posted May 1, 2003 Some info for the Heians can be found here: http://www.24fightingchickens.com/shotokan/index.html
renketsu Posted May 1, 2003 Posted May 1, 2003 Using a little latteral thinking, I think the kata are as follows (Shotokan names in Bold). Please note: The names in italic are the Wado Ryu names and these may more closely resemble the katas from ITF - as these are thought to be more like the original Shotokan katas before 'Japanification' by Master funakoshi (founder of Shotokan). Master Ohtsuka, the founder of Wado Ryu, trained under Master Funakoshi and took the original kata of Shotokan with him when founding Wado Ryu. Hei-an I, II, III, IV and V -> Heian / pinnan Bat-sai -> Bassai Dai En-bi -> Enpi / wanshu Ro-hai -> Meikyo / rohai Kouh-shang-kouh -> Kanku Dai / Kushanku Tet-ki I, II and III -> Tekki / naifanch Jit-te -> Jitte/Jutte Han-Getsu -> Hangetsu / Seishan Ji-on -> Jion There are now more Shotokan kata (total of 26) but these are the base kata of shotokan that are used in their original form in Wado Ryu. With exception of Tekki II and III, they were added after Wado was formed. Also Gankaku/chinto and Nijushiho/Niseishi are part of the original set (and Wado Kata) which are not on your list but may turn up on further digging. If I am wrong on any part of this I would appreciate your comments as this is the situation as I understand it! Andy. Andy Wilkinson (Sandan)Renketsu Karate Club Senior Instructor(http://www.renketsu.org.uk)
hobbitbob Posted May 1, 2003 Posted May 1, 2003 Pre-1975 TKD was Shotokan (frequently very well executed!). My understanding of the origins of the Chang-Hon forms is that Gen. Choi directed Han Cha-Kyo to "Come up with some forms that aren't Japanese." Han mixed and matched techniques, added more kicks, and designed the Chang-Hon set. I think that he did a wonderful job, and the froms are a wealth of combat technique! Tang Soo Do still uses the "Shoto 26," as does Chung Do Kwan. Their executiuon of the Kata are similar to the way the SKA and the Shotokai people do them. There have always been Starkadders at Cold Comfort Farm!
SaiFightsMS Posted May 1, 2003 Posted May 1, 2003 The heian/pinan katas as well as the tekki/naihanchi katas can be traced back to Itosu. It is thought that the naihanchi kata was originally just one long kata and that Itosu broke it down into three katas to facilitate learning. They used to be the first katas that were taught to students. The heian/pinan katas are also traceable to Itosu. To facilitate teaching to younger students he introduced them. They are largely based on kanku dai. Jitte,jiin and jion may have originally been one kata or not. It is thought that they have a lineage going back to a Chinese temple. The Meikyo/Rohai katas are very old. Their origin has been lost to history. By Kouh-shang-kouh you mean either kusanku or kanku dai. It is known in different styles bye both names.
John G Posted May 2, 2003 Author Posted May 2, 2003 Thankyou very much for your responses, it feels like several doors have opened before me from which a wealth of knowledge can be sought (actually it feels like a bottomless pit, and I fear my life will expire before I scratch the surface). Kata/patterns/tuls are so under rated these in our instant gratification society. I once thought that they were only a means to get to my next grading and had little meaning or value in our modern society. I was wrong. Respectfully, … John G Jarrett III Dan, ITF Taekwon-Do
fireka Posted May 2, 2003 Posted May 2, 2003 i dont know a lot about TKD, but arnt poomse kinda like the same idea as kata in theory? "i could dance like that!.......if i felt like it...." -Master Betty
Anduina Posted May 7, 2003 Posted May 7, 2003 What can I say? I have trained TKD for a year, and karate therd year. And one thing that I can say that parts of poomose/tull are very similar to kata. Even all forms are similar, for example Heian(Pinan)II and Won-hyo. I thing that is becouse Choi Hong Hi has lerned karate and he even had black belt.
IAMA_chick Posted May 7, 2003 Posted May 7, 2003 our school does bat-sai Tae Kwon Do15-years oldpurple--belt
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