hobbitbob Posted May 1, 2003 Share Posted May 1, 2003 A good example of how the interperetation may vary is to take Heian 4, a popular "demo" kata. the opening sequence (Left and Right Haiwan Shuto Uke in Kokutsu Dachi, followed by Juji Uke in Left Zenkutsu Dachi) is valueless when interepereted as : 1: Block a punch to the head from the left. 2: Repeat on the opposite side. 3: Step forward and block a kick. However, when interepereted as "shaking" oneself free of a bear hug, controlling the arms, and executing a wrist lock to bring the oponent to the ground (and, if one incorporated the Morote Uke that follows, dislocating the wrist, elbow,and shoulder in one fell swoop!) the Kata has value. If you watch the JKA Bunkai tapes, they are downright silly. I wonder how much of this can be attributed to the Uchinanchu not wanting to share with the Japnese,and how much is attributable to the rapid growth of Karate in the very militaristic early Showa period? I actually credit the BJJ folks for "shocking" us out of complacency. They made it obvious that unless you are Oyama Masutatsu, the block punch kick method is flawed. Thanks to the Gracies, Karateka began looking into their own systems for the "himitsu" or "hidden techniques," that weren't that hidden. To be fair, the Uchinanchu had always taught them, but the throrws and locking techniques weren't popular with the "sport" mentality that permeated Karate in the 70s and 80s. Even Wado Kai, which has Jujutsu as its co-base, has been taught as a percussive art only. I started out in Wado Ryu,and we never learned anything about locking or throwing. It was Yoshinkan Aikido that introduced the concepts to me, and allowed me first to see that the same techniques were in Karate. The locking/throwing techniqes are beginning to filter back into Shotokan via Harry Cook (in the U.K.), Asai Tetsuhiko and Abe Ryoki (in Japan), and many others. Also, many Shotokan teachers in the US do teach self-defence, most notably Dennis Palumbo in Denver, Skip Matthews in Seattle, and Najib Amin in Baltimore. The block punch kick method does have its uses.Due to the spread of TKD/Karate as an afterschool activity, chances are you may be confronted by some bozo in a Kamae, especially if your opponent is middle or upper middle class. About eight years ago, during one of Sisters of Mercy's rare swings through the US, I and my (rather mouthy and obnoxious) girlfriend were standing in line outside the Fenix in Seattle waiting to go in when this person said something to Lisa, she said something back, and suddenly I was confronted by a chap in a back stance with a guard up (Classic TKD point sparring stance! ) I just waited for the flippy roundhouse to the head that I knew was coming, controlled it, took the supporting leg, and let his friends calm him down. I spent the rest of the evening looking over my shoulder. The point of this long-winded example is that the "point sparring" model can get one in trouble in real self defence situations. He had never learned self-control,and I had questionable choice in women! Against someone who wished him ill, he would have been killed or seriously injured. Had he learned self defence, he would never have taken a Kamae, and would not jave attacked with a high Mawashi-Geri on cobblestones, on a hillside, in boots! Osu! There have always been Starkadders at Cold Comfort Farm! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted May 1, 2003 Share Posted May 1, 2003 Great post FurryFeet! Just two points on the technical side I wanted to add: A lot of bunkai is multi-levelled so there are multiple interpretations for each move, excluding the daft ones of course. I'm not completely convinced by the example you gave; one reason being that kokutsu dachi doesn't appear to have been a stance used in the original forms according to Okinawan experts. However, the point you make is spot on. Kamae in general...Yes it is very silly to take a stationary kamae to face an opponent. In real life there is usually no time for this anyway but I think its important to look at kamae more deeply. When you are standing or walking you should be in kamae. This is the sum total of your movement and awareness and attitude. People seem to forget or lose the 'open secret' that kamae are not static positions- they are fluid motions. The solidification came partly from written records that originally contained drawings and then later photographs and also because it was easier to teach static postures. In conflict you should be moving through static postures continually not stopping in them and so your karate will be more realistic. Hobbit- I had a girlfriend like that once...oo bad memories there! Yes, Harry Cook is a name to go next to Mr O'Neills in the important figures in Shotokan. Regards Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobbitbob Posted May 1, 2003 Share Posted May 1, 2003 Osu, Rich. Vince Neill is another man who is putting the Karate back into Shotokan. I ahd a chance to attend a seminar of his in the early 1990s,and was very impressed. As far as Kokutsu Dachi goes, If you think of it as actually a Kiba Dachi in the example I gave, it makes sense. IF you take it in the original context of Neko Ashi Dachi, then the logical explanation for the Haiwan Shuto Uke is a turn into a lunging grab...or many others! There have always been Starkadders at Cold Comfort Farm! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted May 2, 2003 Share Posted May 2, 2003 Fair point Bob. It's reassuring to see some serious martial artists about! Take care Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlailingLimbs Posted May 3, 2003 Author Share Posted May 3, 2003 hmm... :::takes notes::: ===================When cornered, kick 'em in the spetznats. If that doesn't work, run around acting like an epilept + flail your arms about while whizzin' in your pants, then fall down foaming at the mouth. They'll be so disgusted THEY will walk away from the fight.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobbitbob Posted May 3, 2003 Share Posted May 3, 2003 Flail, is there a Tsuruoka Dojo near you? I believe his organization has a school in Winnipeg. The people I haev met from his organization have their heads on right,and will teach you good Karate-jutsu, while teaching overall Karate-Do. There have always been Starkadders at Cold Comfort Farm! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beer-monster Posted May 4, 2003 Share Posted May 4, 2003 How to practise the art, and know how to fight. Hm. My advice would be to use common sense and test with sparring, you know that block,punch kick won;t work. But what other meaning those movements could have, would they work. Also I would practise kata with Iain Abernethy's books as my bible. That will put you on the right path, and how far you go from there is up to you. As for kamae, I think I need some clarification. Do you mean stances such or guards. They are different things. Which one do you mean. Personally I always practise from a modified Shizentai Kamae. Mind, body and fist. Its all a man truly needs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobbitbob Posted May 4, 2003 Share Posted May 4, 2003 I think that there is a popular misconception out there (still) that "sparring" is practice for "fighting." This is a dangerous misconception to have. Sparring's benefits include teaching distancing and timing, as well as the ability to get hit and not be shocked. Sparring does NOT teach one how to fight. Kata Bunkai are used at my dojo to teach self defence, and by extension, "fighting." A recent example (yesterday, in fact!) was the Goju kata Seipai. We began at the beginning (two handed lapel grab) and continued all the way through. the important thing to remember during this sort of training is that the choice of Oyo are but one of many possible interperetations. There is no "only correcvt" way to intereperet the techniques. Beer monster, by Kamae I am speaking of the "tournament fighting stance" that many people assume they will have time to take in a self defence encounter. I'm unfamiliar with Ian Abernathy, do tell.... There have always been Starkadders at Cold Comfort Farm! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TJS Posted May 4, 2003 Share Posted May 4, 2003 Sparring does NOT teach one how to fight. Kata Bunkai are used at my dojo to teach self defence No, sparring is the best preperation for a fight. period..look at any world class fighter..they how they fight..they dont do katas to prepare for a fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobbitbob Posted May 4, 2003 Share Posted May 4, 2003 Sparring does NOT teach one how to fight. Kata Bunkai are used at my dojo to teach self defence No, sparring is the best preperation for a fight. period..look at any world class fighter..they how they fight..they dont do katas to prepare for a fight. Nor are they likely to prevail in a "street" encounter aginst a group or against an armed individual. I will agree with you that sparring is wonderful preparation for boxing/kickboxing/wrestling, etc... I, like many others, am more interested in self defence from the perspective of the average individual, not that of the prizefighter. To be honbest, in 17 years of EMS experience, I have not seen many prizefighter types do very well in self defence encounters. Boxers get thrown to the ground or kicked. Wrestlers take their opponents to the ground, then injure themselves on pavement or are set upon by their adversairy's friends. Kickboxers kick high and are taken to the ground, etc... I also wonder if you have any experience with Kata Bunkai other than the "block then punch" interperetations? If you haven't, then I understand why you would make the above comment. Several posts above the point was made that many people do not teach kata as self defence, but as a means for advancing to the next rank, or as a sort of interperative dance. This is not effective kata training. It is fluff. the other adavantage on derives form kata is an appreciation of what techniwues might work in different situations. The Boxer is limited to mid-long range. The Wrestler to close range. Kata contain techniques appropriate for varying ranges of attack. Lastly, Kata are important when viewed as a part of the greater concept of "Budo," which stresses perfection of charater amd the purging of violent actions from one's personality. I realize that it is often difficult for people to see beyond the outer violent aspects of martial arts, and the popularity of the NHB phenomenon is a stark example of this. Most of us haev no wish to injure others, or to be injured ourselves. There is an old saying, "there is no first hand in Karate," and for this reason the waza containied in Kata are always in response to an attack. While I'm aware that one can become an effective fighter by going to the nearest biker bar every night and picking fight after fight, that person will not be a martial artist. Instead, he will be a thug. I have no desire to be a thug. Having looked at you profile, and seeing that you do Taekwon-do and Krav Maga, I would hazard a guess that you have never worked with effective Bunkai that you are aware of. The drills used in Krav Maga, i.e. escapes from holds, dealing with weapon armed opponents, are exactly what one does when one practices Bunkai and Oyo. For some reason most Korean stylists are locked into the block/pinch/kick model of martial arts. I don't know if it was an unwillingness on the part of teh Japanese instructors of the TKD originators, or,as I suspect, the unwillingness of the Japanese' own Okinawan instructors to teach them Bunkai and Oyo. Either way, most TKD practitioners have never had a chance to see Kata as anything other than interperative dance. There have always been Starkadders at Cold Comfort Farm! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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